Israel/Gaza: Calling all UK forum members.

Atavachron wrote: I've had things stolen from me, it bites big time, but I think people's lives and homes are a little different than an Iron Maiden album

birdwithteeth11 wrote:   Where do you think I'm being racist? I'm not trying to be and would be more than happy to clarify what I mean. Also, the reason I'm being one-sided is because last I checked, Muslim groups like Hamas have been the cause of much more violence and damage than any Jews or Jewish group that I can think of. Why the hell do people always blame Jews and/or Israel for causing problems when they just want to live in peace?!

Edited by Henry Plainview - January 13 2009 at 22:08

Henry Plainview wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote:   Where do you think I'm being racist? I'm not trying to be and would be more than happy to clarify what I mean. Also, the reason I'm being one-sided is because last I checked, Muslim groups like Hamas have been the cause of much more violence and damage than any Jews or Jewish group that I can think of. Why the hell do people always blame Jews and/or Israel for causing problems when they just want to live in peace?! And I wasn't trying to call you a bad person. But I'm pretty sure generalizing an the inhabitants of an area as violent psychopaths is racist. It's not blaming the Jews so much as pointing out the atrocities they have committed in the name of self-defense.

Alright, I understand the first part. I do tend to generalize sometimes with regards to what history says. By no means do I think all Muslims are bad people either.

What atrocities are you specifically referring to? If the white phosphorous thing is one of them, last I remember that was used as recently as the Second World War. The fact that we have "civilized" countries still using it doesn't really surprise me. It's a hell of an effective weapon for rooting out an enemy that's dug in and entrenched (although the fact that they are chemical weapons does lead to the moral issue of the dilemma).

birdwithteeth11 wrote: I get what you mean, but what part of "put yourself in their shoes" is so hard to understand? To us outsiders, it certainly doesn't seem fair, but quite honestly I'm not surprised that Israel has always treated the Palestinians like crap. From what I've learned, they (the Palestinians) are like that kid who's a social reject and sits by himself every day on the playground during recess until he snaps and starts going nuts. It used to be that large numbers of Palestinians would flock to other Middle Eastern countries, but Egypt, one of the countries heavily involved in the current peace discussions, has closed their borders to Palestine. They don't want these people and no other country does because they just cause trouble wherever they go, at least they did last time I checked a history book. Anyway, to respond to what you said, try to imagine the situation from the perspective of the Israelis. I can fully understand why they wouldn't allow Arabs to hold office in Israel. How many native Arabs can you think of that like having Israel around?

I'm trying very hard to stay calm right now. Palestine is the social reject? They were kicked out of their own country because a country thousands of miles away committed atrocities on a people who used to live in the region. Eventually countries close borders to refugees because they just can't deal with them, not because they're "troublemakers." 1.4 million people are living on a strip of land smaller than a decent-sized city, and those are the descendants of generations of refugees. They've only ever known squalor and malnutrition and barbed wire all around them, and they get sanctioned by the West. The ratio of Palestinian deaths to Israeli casualties is right now 971:13. It's a goddamn slaughter. And they're just being petulant? How dare you.

Dmitri? ..Dmitri?!

1800iareyay wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote: I get what you mean, but what part of "put yourself in their shoes" is so hard to understand? To us outsiders, it certainly doesn't seem fair, but quite honestly I'm not surprised that Israel has always treated the Palestinians like crap. From what I've learned, they (the Palestinians) are like that kid who's a social reject and sits by himself every day on the playground during recess until he snaps and starts going nuts. It used to be that large numbers of Palestinians would flock to other Middle Eastern countries, but Egypt, one of the countries heavily involved in the current peace discussions, has closed their borders to Palestine. They don't want these people and no other country does because they just cause trouble wherever they go, at least they did last time I checked a history book. Anyway, to respond to what you said, try to imagine the situation from the perspective of the Israelis. I can fully understand why they wouldn't allow Arabs to hold office in Israel. How many native Arabs can you think of that like having Israel around? I'm trying very hard to stay calm right now. Palestine is the social reject? They were kicked out of their own country because a country thousands of miles away committed atrocities on a people who used to live in the region. Eventually countries close borders to refugees because they just can't deal with them, not because they're "troublemakers." 1.4 million people are living on a strip of land smaller than a decent-sized city, and those are the descendants of generations of refugees. They've only ever known squalor and malnutrition and barbed wire all around them, and they get sanctioned by the West. The ratio of Palestinian deaths to Israeli casualties is right now 971:13. It's a goddamn slaughter. And they're just being petulant? How dare you.

Last I checked, this was between Israel and Hamas, not Israel and Palestinians. They get sanctioned by the West because Hamas has been declared a terrorist group by many Western countries for many of the terrible atrocities they themselves have committed. The Palestinians suffer from "squalor and malnutrition and barbed wire" because Hamas currently runs that country and prefers to use money to launch missles at Israel rather than establish ways for Palestinians to get adequate food, water, shelter, etc.  They got kicked out of part of their country because the UN decided that Jews needed a homeland and no country wanted to take these large numbers of Jewish refugees in (not surprisingly at all). Granted, dealing with large numbers of refugees is part of the reason other Middle Eastern countries have closed their borders to these people, but the other part is because Hamas could easily use that as an excuse to slip their members into other countries as well as gain control in places other than Palestine.

Is there anything I didn't provide an answer to for what you just said? Also, I keep mentioning Hamas because, how do I put this... oh yeah, THEY are the problem, NOT the Israelis. Until Hamas is driven out of Palestine, the Palestinians will never know anything except war, destruction, and chaos.

1800iareyay wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote: Where do you think I'm being racist? I'm not trying to be and would be more than happy to clarify what I mean. Also, the reason I'm being one-sided is because last I checked, Muslim groups like Hamas have been the cause of much more violence and damage than any Jews or Jewish group that I can think of. Why the hell do people always blame Jews and/or Israel for causing problems when they just want to live in peace?! No, you didn't check, nor have you ever checked. The ratio from this conflict alone is 971:13. In the 2006 spat, 7 Israelis died compared to 394 deaths. I allow people's opinions, and have heard some interesting defenses for Israel, but if you're just going to parrot "why is everyone picking on noble, democratic Israel" talking points and just make sh*t up, kindly don't voice yours.

Tell Hamas and other terrorist groups to stop using civilians as human shields. Unfortunately, Hamas is a group of people that doesn't conform to neat little things called the Geneva Convention of any other international codes of conducting war. Their main goal is to wipe Israel off the map, and they will do whatever it takes to accomplish that, no matter what the cost, and anyone who gets in their way be damned, including civilians.

And why am I not allowed to voice my own opinion? Is it simply because you disagree with me? Prove to me where I'm wrong and make me understand where you're coming from, because I don't have a reason to yet.

birdwithteeth11 wrote: Last I checked, this was between Israel and Hamas, not Israel and Palestinians. They get sanctioned by the West because Hamas has been declared a terrorist group by many Western countries for many of the terrible atrocities they themselves have committed. The Palestinians suffer from "squalor and malnutrition and barbed wire" because Hamas currently runs that country and prefers to use money to launch missles at Israel rather than establish ways for Palestinians to get adequate food, water, shelter, etc.  They got kicked out of part of their country because the UN decided that Jews needed a homeland and no country wanted to take these large numbers of Jewish refugees in (not surprisingly at all). Granted, dealing with large numbers of refugees is part of the reason other Middle Eastern countries have closed their borders to these people, but the other part is because Hamas could easily use that as an excuse to slip their members into other countries as well as gain control in places other than Palestine. Is there anything I didn't provide an answer to for what you just said? Also, I keep mentioning Hamas because, how do I put this... oh yeah, THEY are the problem, NOT the Israelis. Until Hamas is driven out of Palestine, the Palestinians will never know anything except war, destruction, and chaos.

You are seriously too stupid. You provided answers all right, just more made up ones. Refugees have been living there in squalor and waste since back when Egypt controlled it. When Israel took over, they didn't fix anything. Of course uneducated, starving, displaced masses voted for a party that vowed revenge for the people who put them there. If the roles were reversed, if Israel, the democracy, were lobbing missiles into the theocratic country that displaced them, the US would fund them to no end. But since there's a small contingent of terrorists (go figure, in a region that knows only poverty and oppression), and because terrorists are the new Communists, we back the country that violates UN resolutions by bombing civilians who don't even have a knife to use against soldiers. It's hilarious to know that you would have supported Britain in the Revolution.

Tell Hamas and other terrorist groups to stop using civilians as human shields.

Here's a fun lesson: when tanks and bombers decimate refugee camps with abandon, it's the attackers' fault.

Unfortunately, Hamas is a group of people that doesn't conform to neat little things called the Geneva Convention of any other international codes of conducting war. Their main goal is to wipe Israel off the map, and they will do whatever it takes to accomplish that, no matter what the cost, and anyone who gets in their way be damned, including civilians.

You're right, we should condem the people with a history of violating resolutions.

And why am I not allowed to voice my own opinion? Is it simply because you disagree with me? Prove to me where I'm wrong and make me understand where you're coming from, because I don't have a reason to yet.

I already proved you wrong by showing that Israel killed far more people. Then I did it again by pointing out that Israel is the one violating every UN resolution that pertains to it.

Oh, and here's this gem:

This one has more merit than the previous issue, although the fact that accusations were brought by other Arabs and left-wingers makes me suspicious.

That's it, you're done. As laughable and racist as your previous posts were, this seals the deal on how worthless your attempts at discourse are.

Atavachron wrote: this thread is going down in flames..  Admin ?

Evidently, any discussion beyond an inane prog poll merits serious administrative attention:  for someone might be offended!

1800iareyay wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote: Last I checked, this was between Israel and Hamas, not Israel and Palestinians. They get sanctioned by the West because Hamas has been declared a terrorist group by many Western countries for many of the terrible atrocities they themselves have committed. The Palestinians suffer from "squalor and malnutrition and barbed wire" because Hamas currently runs that country and prefers to use money to launch missles at Israel rather than establish ways for Palestinians to get adequate food, water, shelter, etc.  They got kicked out of part of their country because the UN decided that Jews needed a homeland and no country wanted to take these large numbers of Jewish refugees in (not surprisingly at all). Granted, dealing with large numbers of refugees is part of the reason other Middle Eastern countries have closed their borders to these people, but the other part is because Hamas could easily use that as an excuse to slip their members into other countries as well as gain control in places other than Palestine. Is there anything I didn't provide an answer to for what you just said? Also, I keep mentioning Hamas because, how do I put this... oh yeah, THEY are the problem, NOT the Israelis. Until Hamas is driven out of Palestine, the Palestinians will never know anything except war, destruction, and chaos. You are seriously too stupid. You provided answers all right, just more made up ones. Refugees have been living there in squalor and waste since back when Egypt controlled it. When Israel took over, they didn't fix anything. Of course uneducated, starving, displaced masses voted for a party that vowed revenge for the people who put them there. If the roles were reversed, if Israel, the democracy, were lobbing missiles into the theocratic country that displaced them, the US would fund them to no end. But since there's a small contingent of terrorists (go figure, in a region that knows only poverty and oppression), and because terrorists are the new Communists, we back the country that violates UN resolutions by bombing civilians who don't even have a knife to use against soldiers. It's hilarious to know that you would have supported Britain in the Revolution. Tell Hamas and other terrorist groups to stop using civilians as human shields. Here's a fun lesson: when tanks and bombers decimate refugee camps with abandon, it's the attackers' fault. Unfortunately, Hamas is a group of people that doesn't conform to neat little things called the Geneva Convention of any other international codes of conducting war. Their main goal is to wipe Israel off the map, and they will do whatever it takes to accomplish that, no matter what the cost, and anyone who gets in their way be damned, including civilians. You're right, we should condem the people with a history of violating resolutions. And why am I not allowed to voice my own opinion? Is it simply because you disagree with me? Prove to me where I'm wrong and make me understand where you're coming from, because I don't have a reason to yet. I already proved you wrong by showing that Israel killed far more people. Then I did it again by pointing out that Israel is the one violating every UN resolution that pertains to it. Oh, and here's this gem: This one has more merit than the previous issue, although the fact that accusations were brought by other Arabs and left-wingers makes me suspicious. That's it, you're done. As laughable and racist as your previous posts were, this seals the deal on how worthless your attempts at discourse are.

I'm done, but mostly because you just want to disagree with me and treat me disrespectfully rather than have an intellectual discussion. If you want to mindlessly follow what a worthless organization like the UN says (I can't think of a time in the last 25 years where they've done something that's proven to be beneficial to our country. It's all just anti-United States and anti-Israel), go ahead, but I'm through with discussing things here. You don't listen to anything I've said and you've just said "you're wrong" to every point I've made. Feel free to disagree with me, but I'll be damned if you're going to keep talking to me like I'm a moron.

I also STILL don't see where or how I was racist in any of my posts. You can still attempt to point them out, but don't expect any more responses from me.


Edited by birdwithteeth11 - January 13 2009 at 23:23