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rileydog22 View Drop Down
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Points: 8844 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:47
What he did for Eno, Fripp, Oldfield, etc. was session work.  There is no room in PA for session musicians who happen to record for prog groups on occasion.  For example, Jack Bruce sat in with Zappa, McLaughlin, and Jon Anderson.  Should he be in the Archives?  

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Points: 66331 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:51
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Ivan's right:  Phil Collins has no love lost for "prog".  From the Genesis special I watched, these are not verbatim but pretty damn close:

"If I was stranded on a desert island, I'd much rather have a Sam & Dave or Aretha Franklin record than anything by Yes or Pink Floyd"

(talking about the emergence of punk)  "They talked about these (prog) bands, saying they're such crap, they're dinosaurs.  And I was like, 'yeah, they really are crap'.  And I was later horrified to learn that we (Genesis) were among the bands that they were talking about!"
 
I don't know about these such things but I have read similar comments elsewhere.  But I have also read comments that these things were taken out of context.  But to that end, unfortunately prog has that stigma that has caused many an artist want to avoid the label of being a prog artist.
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Points: 66331 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:56
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

OK let's face it and stop being polite...  the man's music and all it stands for makes my skin crawl in a way unlike most other pop artists.. but hey, I'm sure he's a lovely guy




 
A common feeling amongst prog fans and fully expected.  I respect that.  Mikael Akerfeldt's death growls cause this same skin crawling sensation to me.  Opeth is here and I respect that too.  (And please I am not comparing Opeth to Phil Collins).  Although I dislike Opeth's vocals their music is extremely prog.
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Points: 65289 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:02
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

OK let's face it and stop being polite...  the man's music and all it stands for makes my skin crawl in a way unlike most other pop artists.. but hey, I'm sure he's a lovely guy

 
A common feeling amongst prog fans and fully expected.  I respect that.  Mikael Akerfeldt's death growls cause this same skin crawling sensation to me.  Opeth is here and I respect that too.  (And please I am not comparing Opeth to Phil Collins).  Although I dislike Opeth's vocals their music is extremely prog.


it's more than that... and Akerfeldt's vocals are suppose to make you feel that wayLOL
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Points: 66331 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:04
Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

What he did for Eno, Fripp, Oldfield, etc. was session work.  There is no room in PA for session musicians who happen to record for prog groups on occasion.  For example, Jack Bruce sat in with Zappa, McLaughlin, and Jon Anderson.  Should he be in the Archives?  
 
I forgot to mention that he also appeared on a couple of Peter Gabriel albums and Voyage of the Acolyte with Steve Hackett.  But I digress since that doesn't add to the fact that it was session work.  As far as inclusion for session work I guess it would depend upon what the session work consisted of.  Playing the notes that were presented before him or being told this is what we have, make it work. 
 
In regards to Jack Bruce, if Cream were here as proto-prog (I'm not certain whether they are or not) then I would support Jack Bruce on the premise that he is prog-related or at least proto-prog related.  
 
Tony Levin is a pretty awesome session player who is here (to an extent he is probably best known because of his session work).  Weak argument, but an observation. 
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Points: 19551 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:06
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

Puttin Phil Collins in the archives is like giving Hitler the nobel peace prize - an obsurdity
 
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
 
Just couldn't stop laughing, genius man, pure gennius. Clap
 
Iván
            
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Points: 66331 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:16
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

Puttin Phil Collins in the archives is like giving Hitler the nobel peace prize - an obsurdity
 
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
 
Just couldn't stop laughing, genius man, pure gennius. Clap
 
Iván
 
Any reference to Hitler in such away could be construed as extremely offensive so I would be careful there.   Unfortunately to take it a step further, if God forbid Hitler were still alive today, he might be the one who is offended. 
 
P.S. I made a similar comment in the thread I created suggesting a list of rejected artists, except that I used George W. Bush as my Nobel Peace Prize winner.
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Points: 36152 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:20
The%20ResidentsThe%20Third%20Reich%20N%20Roll%20album%20cover

If H. references are good enough for the Residents, then they're good enough for me.

Edited by Logan - November 15 2007 at 23:21
Duos for fave acts
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Points: 19551 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:26
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

 
I don't know about these such things but I have read similar comments elsewhere.  But I have also read comments that these things were taken out of context. 
 
No Rushfan I'm a Genesis fan and have everything they have released until ATTW3 (the last studio album I bought) Duke and Ibnvissible Touch that were gifts (IT is brand new LP sealed for sale Wink), plus all the DVD's, bootlegs, books and dovcumentaries.
 
And that's not the worst:
 
  1. Q: In retrospect, how much did punk rock really affect your life?
    Well, I always felt that, hey, this big shake up ain't going to affect us, because there's substance to what we're doing. I never really felt threatened by it. But what I did feel was that it was going to get rid of a lot of that crap that was around.
  2. In a concert of the ABACAB tour asked I believe for Giant Hogweed (not sure  about the song) and Collins replied "We dopn't play that crap anymore"
  3. In 1981 on Groenoordhallen Netherlands, Collins insulted the audience who claimed for old material cklhallenging them to meet him after the show, and was booed during a good part of the show.

He spoke a lot of crap.

Iván
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 15 2007 at 23:28
            
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Points: 1049 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:32
If Phil gets added some people will walk I would say. Stern%20Smile
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Points: 65289 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:34
if read carefully, Collins does not really fit the PR definition--


Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre

Collin's solo work did not demonstrably receive "clear musical influence of this genre"


- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community,

again, not applicable to Collin's as a solo artist


- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.

nope


We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be, Prog Archives has to evaluate their compositional work because the music is what determines the characteristics of a band or an artist.

Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre but they have contributed in some form in the development of Progressive Rock, the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it’s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.


Iván Melgar Morey




there you have it Smile
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Logan View Drop Down
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Points: 36152 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:34
I'm confident that Phil won't get added.
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Points: 66331 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:35
Below is a following quote from Evergrey.  I suppose that we should now remove them from the site. 
 
Evergrey is often labelled as prog rock/metal band. How fo you feel about that? Is this correct, or would like to describe your music otherwise?
Tom reacts very energetic: "We are not prog metal. We are trying to kill that label. I would say: a good combination of metal and melody. That are the good songs!
Rikard: "It's prog metal in a sense that we allowed us to have very heavy metal parts and various things."
Tom: That's the problem all journalists have with us: they can't label us. It is a good thing for us, cause we created our own identity and have done what we wanted. We are sick and tired of that label."
Michael (bassplayer): "The problem is when people haven't heard us and someone says that it is prog metal. The other person says: 'I don't like that so I am not going to listen to it.' That's the problem with labelling."
  
If Phil made these comments and they weren't taken out of context it is an added reason for those who dislike him to dislike him, but unfortunately, as you very well know, it is not uncommon for artist to deny that they are prog because there is a certain stigma attached to that.
 
Edit:  To give credit where credit is due I copied the Evergrey inverview from another website.  Below is the link to that interview in case anyone is interested.
 


Edited by rushfan4 - November 16 2007 at 13:26
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Points: 66331 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:39
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

if read carefully, Collins does not really fit the PR definition--


Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre

Collin's solo work did not demonstrably receive "clear musical influence of this genre"


- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community,

again, not applicable to Collin's as a solo artist


- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.

nope


We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be, Prog Archives has to evaluate their compositional work because the music is what determines the characteristics of a band or an artist.

Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre but they have contributed in some form in the development of Progressive Rock, the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it’s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.


Iván Melgar Morey




there you have it Smile


 
Agreed 100%.  This comment was posted in another thread in response to a comment made by Easy Livin' in the "what is related in prog related" thread.  In that thread he posted that an artist was considered prog-related if they were once a member in a prog band.  He also begrudgingly mentioned Phil Collins as a candidate under this interpretation of the Prog-Related section.
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Points: 65289 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:46
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

 
Agreed 100%.  This comment was posted in another thread in response to a comment made by Easy Livin' in the "what is related in prog related" thread.  In that thread he posted that an artist was considered prog-related if they were once a member in a prog band.  He also begrudgingly mentioned Phil Collins as a candidate under this interpretation of the Prog-Related section.


you may be over-simplifying what EasyLivin said, or meant--  if the only or most important quality for ProgRelated was membership in a prog band, it would get out of hand...  but again, read the definition, it's rather clear;  "We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be.."


This definition was made for Collins.. it screams out DON"T ADD HIM FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD !
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Points: 66331 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:51
For those who didn't see this, this is Bob's quote:
 
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Prog related is as much about a personal feeling for what it is as prog itself is. The Admin team work pretty much from the same hymn sheet, as we can reach agreement on most proposals. Even then though, there is from time to time disagreement among us. In such cases, if there is a clear majority, that prevails. Otherwise, or if we think the proposal is particularly controversial, M@x will have the final say. We don't all agree with all the additions by any means. I was strongly against the Beatles for example. We are a team though, and are happy to support a decision when it is made (the Beatles was M@x's by the way).
 
My own perspective is that Prog Related bands are those who have a clear relationship with prog, but are not a prog band as such. Perhaps they have released an album which is out of character with the bulk of their output, which has strong prog elements (see Wishbone Ash). Perhaps their music is prog in a pop context, such as 10CC. Perhaps they have released one or more concept albums which bring successive songs together to form something substantially more than the sum of the parts (dare I say Boston!). All solo artists who are members of prog bands are prog related (except Phil Collins!). I believe it is important to ahve the catalogues of such artists added, if only to demonstrate how their solo careers use or do not use prog. How many of us have bought albums by solo memebrs of prog bands, only to find that they bear no relation to prog. I believe the site can provide a real service here by listing such artists, OK including Phil!LOL Taking the phrase literally, of course they are related to prog. This does not extend to memebrs of prog related or proto prog bands, or to band such as Mike and the Mechanics who have a member who is also in a prog band.
 
These are just my own thoughts of course.
 
Can I also go back to a comment in the Boston thread suggesting there were inconsistencies in the Prog Related additionsand the admission process for them. As long as we all have our own diverse opinions, there will always seem to be inconsistencies. These are perceived as a result of the old, X is more prog than Y argument. The reality is that where one person thinks a band should be added, another does not, that is where the inconsistency really is!
 
Often people will shout foul because a band they want added is still waiting. They don't actually object to the band being proposed, they just think that the case for another is stronger. 
 
Interestingly, the number of bands rejected for PR since the Admin team took on overseeing it is very low indeed, 2 or 3 I think. Many people think that artists have been rejected when they have not. Those who come to mind include Bowie, Hendrix, Journey, Toto, etc. We've never been asked for permission to add any of these.
 
On top of all this, there are the purists who have not bought into the site policy of using prog related bands to bring people to the site. They object to every prog related proposal and bemoan people "wasting their time" on such bands.
 
Finally, can I point out just how successful this site is. We are often the first site to come up in Google searches for bands and albums. We have become the reference point of choice for literally thousands of people who don't actually join the site, but find it an indispensable resource. We have contributed enormously to the resurgence of prog.
 
If people search for information about say Black Sabbath (A band selected by me at random), they may well think, "I didn't realise BS had a relationship with prog". They come to the site to investigate further, and discover what that relationship is. They are presented on the front page with reviews of many fine prog bands, they see our top 100 albums and investigate further. They look at the forum, and find it to be friendly, informative and lively. Subtly we get them hooked. We sell them prog by playing on their interests where they overlap with prog.
 
This startegy was always M@x's vision for the site. It is he who has mastered the Google search and steered us towards this goal. He takes the plaudits for the vision, and our members, and especially our collaborators, take the credit for making it happen.
 
Prog related is an essential part of this strategy.
 
Yes we have lost fine members along the way, we have seen serious disagreements about the site direction, but let's look at the positve side for a change. This is a huge success story. This is a wonderful site. This is our site.
 
 
 
 
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Points: 65289 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2007 at 00:00
a great post from Bob, and I fully agree, I also wouldn't be surprised if Collins is eventually added..  but he simply doesn't fit the definition of ProgRelated as it currently stands








Edited by Atavachron - November 16 2007 at 00:02
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Points: 66331 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2007 at 00:04
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

What he did for Eno, Fripp, Oldfield, etc. was session work.  There is no room in PA for session musicians who happen to record for prog groups on occasion.  For example, Jack Bruce sat in with Zappa, McLaughlin, and Jon Anderson.  Should he be in the Archives?  
 
I forgot to mention that he also appeared on a couple of Peter Gabriel albums and Voyage of the Acolyte with Steve Hackett.  But I digress since that doesn't add to the fact that it was session work.  As far as inclusion for session work I guess it would depend upon what the session work consisted of.  Playing the notes that were presented before him or being told this is what we have, make it work. 
 
In regards to Jack Bruce, if Cream were here as proto-prog (I'm not certain whether they are or not) then I would support Jack Bruce on the premise that he is prog-related or at least proto-prog related.  
 
Tony Levin is a pretty awesome session player who is here (to an extent he is probably best known because of his session work).  Weak argument, but an observation. 
 
Sorry to quote myself but I just re-read Bob's post and the comment that a member of a proto-prog artist would not be included.  So in that case I would not include Jack Bruce.  And at least at this point, I did look and Cream is not here as proto-prog, so all and all I would say no.
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Points: 66331 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2007 at 00:16
Thank you everyone for your comments and keeping this debate civil.  I must call it a night.  I certainly hope that you don't revoke my membership while I am gone.  Also, I have hired Britney Spear's ex-bodyguard for my protection while I sleep, and I think that he might be a Phil Collins fan, although I might need to keep one eye open in case he is a Peter Gabriel fan. Wink
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Points: 321 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2007 at 00:39
NO, NO, AND NO AGAIN.

Sure, the man is brilliant as a pop musician (...I liked "Testify", as well as his first two albums....*is shot*) and as a progressive drummer (...and singer....gots to love his performances on "For Absent Friends" and "Squonk"....). But he does NOT belong in the archives. WTF is progressive about "I SEE UR TRUE COLLLLOURS", or "U CAN'T HURRY LURVES", or "SHE SAID 'SIR CAN U HELP ME'", or whatever "Another Day in Paradise" says????????

So he hit a few hi-hats for Brand X and Genesis (we can all thank Phil for The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and Selling England by the Pound ever going gold America, fellow proggers...) and Brian Eno and everybody who has ever existed. That's great, love the work, but that doesn't justify an inclusion in the archives.


(Peter Gabriel's presence, on the other hand, is justifiable: he never did abandon his progressive roots, AKA "Peter Gabriel III" and "So". "Mercy Street" is not your typical 80s garbage.....)

Edited by Teh_Slippermenz - November 16 2007 at 00:42
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