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ghost_of_morphy 
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 Posted: November 12 2007 at 02:55 |
 Shakespeare wrote:
And I do think that the sounds of waves crashing on the beach is art. If someone recorded it, would you consider it art? Or, more specifically, music? If it was used as a song intro or as a track in an ambient song?
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Ok, that's a really interesting point that does take us very close to the line. How do we evaluate, for example, the intro to Close To The Edge? Human interference is limited to the selection of the sounds and volume until the band starts playing against it.
But that interference is there, and it's an introduction, it makes a statement (of a kind.) I think we have to quantify that as art, however minimalistic the actual artistry might be. And there lies the difference between art and noise. Intelligent editing of some kind. The insertion of some form of order upon chaos.
When you find something you think of as artistry in nature, your own mind is imposing it's own order upon what you perceive. Like I said earlier, it's possible to experience an aesthetic experience directly from nature. But in such cases it is your own mind imposing order and meaning upon what you perceive. And it is not artistry because that requires an Other who imposes that stuff.
Now in aesthetic theory there is also a requirement that ssuch a structure imposed appeals to one or more types of emotion, but we won't get into that, because if you are perceiving something as art, it appeals to you and that requirement has been fulfilled already.
P.S. I got an A in aesthetics for citing Yes's Perpetual Change as an example, oh so many years ago. 
Edited by ghost_of_morphy - November 12 2007 at 02:56
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ghost_of_morphy
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 03:02 |
andu wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:
And I do think that the sounds of waves crashing on the beach is art. If someone recorded it, would you consider it art? Or, more specifically, music? If it was used as a song intro or as a track in an ambient song? Yes, right? (Maybe not, but just bear with me.) But does that mean that before recording equipment was available, this sound was not art? I think that it is art - and music - even without being filtered through a human being or one of his many devices.
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No. As Dean puts it, art is only that what comes from artistic intentions. What you are describing is natural beauty (as opposed to artistic beauty). BTW you're the drummer here and you should know, waves can be imitated by drums and percussion, why don't you give it a try? 
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Art comes from the order or structure imposed upon the medium, but not necessarily from the INTENTIONS of the artist. Surely you have experience a work of art that meant one thing to you and something strikingly different to someone else. An artist just arranges the material to the best of his ability to lead to a cohesive whole, what those materials build is ultimately determined by how you put them together.
Is Hamlet a coward? Is he brave? Is he reckless?
All three of those answers have been given and voluminously supported with examples from the text. It's how you put together the pieces that you are given in your own mind that determine meaning.
An accepted meaning is not required for art. A structured presentation that evokes an emotional response is all that is required.
Edited by ghost_of_morphy - November 12 2007 at 03:05
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The T
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:17 |
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I'd say consciously organized noise is music.
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andu
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:19 |
The T wrote:
I'd say consciously organized noise is music. |
I bet that does not apply to Kayo Dot if I ask you 
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Abstrakt
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:21 |
Bj-1 wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:
Abstrakt wrote:
Everything that is disturbing or painful to the ears is noise.
To me, that's extreme Avant, Merzbow, Most Zeuhl and more... |
ZEUHL!!?!?!?!?!?!
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Zeuhl? Noise?! Unless you refer to Koenjihyakkei's second album (which isn't noise either really). Listen to Kultivator, Magma, Dun and Eskaton and you'll see that Im right.
Zeuhl is often very jazzy and melodic, but also with avant tendencies. NOT noise  |
I said "SOME"!
Some Zeuhl, like Ruins & Magma can be enjoyable at times.
But when i heard Koenjihyakkei: PAINFUL! 
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The T
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:24 |
andu wrote:
The T wrote:
I'd say consciously organized noise is music. |
I bet that does not apply to Kayo Dot if I ask you
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I've never said KD is not music...
I've asked whether it's GOOD music, though... 
And as the definition of GOOD music doesn't exist, then I'm the only one able to define if it's good or no for me. 
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Bj-1
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:29 |
Abstrakt wrote:
Bj-1 wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:
Abstrakt wrote:
Everything that is disturbing or painful to the ears is noise.
To me, that's extreme Avant, Merzbow, Most Zeuhl and more... |
ZEUHL!!?!?!?!?!?!
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Zeuhl? Noise?! Unless you refer to Koenjihyakkei's second album (which isn't noise either really). Listen to Kultivator, Magma, Dun and Eskaton and you'll see that Im right.
Zeuhl is often very jazzy and melodic, but also with avant tendencies. NOT noise |
I said "SOME"!
Some Zeuhl, like Ruins & Magma can be enjoyable at times.
But when i heard Koenjihyakkei: PAINFUL! |
It's still not "noise" genre speaking
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RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!
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Abstrakt
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:30 |
Bj-1 wrote:
Abstrakt wrote:
Bj-1 wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:
Abstrakt wrote:
Everything that is disturbing or painful to the ears is noise.
To me, that's extreme Avant, Merzbow, Most Zeuhl and more... |
ZEUHL!!?!?!?!?!?!
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Zeuhl? Noise?! Unless you refer to Koenjihyakkei's second album (which isn't noise either really). Listen to Kultivator, Magma, Dun and Eskaton and you'll see that Im right.
Zeuhl is often very jazzy and melodic, but also with avant tendencies. NOT noise |
I said "SOME"!
Some Zeuhl, like Ruins & Magma can be enjoyable at times.
But when i heard Koenjihyakkei: PAINFUL! |
It's still not "noise" genre speaking |
Maybe not Noise. But it's painful to listen to, just like Noise
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heyitsthatguy
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:45 |
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erik neuteboom
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 15:38 |
This thread could also have been named "Is there a line between musical adventure and noise" For example, take King Crimson on stage, how many times their improvisations were close to cacophony or 'organized chaos'? And what about Fred Frith his music, very innovative but to me it sounds nerveracking! I am delighted about Keith Emerson his Moog explorations but I know progheads who call it quite noisy. I love Pink Floyd but at some moments it WAS noise like on Ummagumma but to others it sounds as interesting musical ideas  ...
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Shakespeare
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 15:47 |
Abstrakt wrote:
Bj-1 wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:
Abstrakt wrote:
Everything that is disturbing or painful to the ears is noise.
To me, that's extreme Avant, Merzbow, Most Zeuhl and more... |
ZEUHL!!?!?!?!?!?!
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Zeuhl? Noise?!
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I said "SOME"! |
Actually, you said MOST.
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Bj-1
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 15:49 |
Shakespeare wrote:
Abstrakt wrote:
Bj-1 wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:
Abstrakt wrote:
Everything that is disturbing or painful to the ears is noise.
To me, that's extreme Avant, Merzbow, Most Zeuhl and more... |
ZEUHL!!?!?!?!?!?!
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Zeuhl? Noise?!
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I said "SOME"! |
Actually, you said MOST.
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Pwnd 
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RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!
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avestin
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:15 |
I have received a promo cd from a group called Random Touch which can serve as a good example for this discussion.
I find this to be creative, progressive and original music. I am sure other will say this is just noise made some unusual instruments and has no artistic value.
By the way, Dean, great posts, very interesting and thought provoking (and Andu and Ghost Of Murphy as well).
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Shakespeare
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:26 |
avestin wrote:
I have received a promo cd from a group called Random Touch which can serve as a good example for this discussion.
I find this to be creative, progressive and original music. I am sure other will say this is just noise made some unusual instruments and has no artistic value.
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That band is absolutely brilliant. I think I may have to get their album.
By the way, Dean, great posts, very interesting and thought provoking (and Andu and Ghost Of Murphy as well).
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...and Shakesy? AND SHAKSEY? 
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clarke2001
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:31 |
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We are trying to draw the line (or locate it approximately) between
music and noise, but how if we are not even able to define these two
(sub) sets?
What is music?
As someone said, music is a set of organised sounds. I agree.
If I play a harpsichord, if I program a sequencer, if I yell and stump my feet, these are all sets of organised sounds.
But if I fight with my parents, if I whisper to my girlfriend, if I
ask my friend a favour , that's also a set of organised sounds.
Is the purpose the same? In both cases - I'm trying to provoke a
emotion, reaction.
We know that the first case is art, and the second one is not. Why is that so?
As Andu mentioned, art is only that what comes from artistic intentions. But what on Earth is an artistic intention?!?
Anyone? Please!?
Edited by clarke2001 - November 12 2007 at 16:41
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Certif1ed
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:32 |
Music is sound organised in time.
If the sound is not organised in some way, it's only noise.
Sound may be organised by the beholder - so what constitutes noise is anyone's guess.
Unwelcome sounds?
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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clarke2001
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:34 |
Certif1ed wrote:
Music is sound organised in time.
If the sound is not organised in some way, it's only noise.
Sound may be organised by the beholder - so what constitutes noise is anyone's guess.
Unwelcome sounds? |
In my opinion, no. Lots of music that I don't like are "unwelcome sounds", but I know that is music.
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clarke2001
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:40 |
Shakespeare wrote:
And I do think that the sounds of waves
crashing on the beach is art. If someone recorded it, would you
consider it art? Or, more specifically, music? If it was used as a song
intro or as a track in an ambient song? Yes, right? (Maybe not, but
just bear with me.) But does that mean that before recording equipment
was available, this sound was not art? I think that it is art - and
music - even without being filtered through a human being or one of his
many devices.
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The waves crashing on the beach are (not) art no more or less than a
piece of branch that looks like a human figure, or
cliff that looks like a whale.
Of course, you can record ambient sounds, but in a same way you can add your signature under a mountain.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 17:16 |
clarke2001 wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
Music is sound organised in time.
If the sound is not organised in some way, it's only noise.
Sound may be organised by the beholder - so what constitutes noise is anyone's guess.
Unwelcome sounds? |
In my opinion, no. Lots of music that I don't like are "unwelcome sounds", but I know that is music.
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Really?
To whoever is listening to it, maybe - but if I'm trying to get some sleep, then I'm telling you - that's noise.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 17:20 |
clarke2001 wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:
And I do think that the sounds of waves crashing on the beach is art. If someone recorded it, would you consider it art? Or, more specifically, music? If it was used as a song intro or as a track in an ambient song? Yes, right? (Maybe not, but just bear with me.) But does that mean that before recording equipment was available, this sound was not art? I think that it is art - and music - even without being filtered through a human being or one of his many devices.
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The waves crashing on the beach are (not) art no more or less than a piece of branch that looks like a human figure, or cliff that looks like a whale.
Of course, you can record ambient sounds, but in a same way you can add your signature under a mountain.
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It would only take an artist with a "name" to do just that.
As to waves crashing on a beach, there are about 20 minutes of those on Camel's "Harbour of Tears" - and it's part of the album, therefore it's part of the music as the artists intented.
Maybe I should go back through this thread, but time is short...
>Is John Cage's 4'33" music?
Edited by Certif1ed - November 12 2007 at 17:21
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Is There A Line Between Noise & Music?
