Prog and Politics

John Gargo wrote: Reed Lover wrote: The kid is American so obviously doesnt realise that the rest of the world is re-embracing socialism as an alternative to f**king everyone with a low income right up the ass-without lubricant. If this is me you're talking to, I'd like to correct you.  I'm actually Greek, but I happen to live in America.  Also, the Greek socialist party lost it's first election in a long time in Greece last year, so not every country is re-embracing your crazy (and I mean that in the nicest way  ) socialist ideals...

If you'd take your blinkers off for a second you would realise I was addressing Sweetnighter!

These are not my crazy socialist ideals they happen to be the ideals of my country and much of Europe. Britain has the most bouyant economy in the world at the moment-with a Socialist government.It really sticks in my craw when some under-educated, over-ambitious, money -obsessed young toad like you knocks socialism.What you are actually saying is f**k everyone else.And i mean that in the nicest way-not.

Here's an idea-f**k off back to Greece, before that sh*t hole of a country (USA) f**ks up your mind totally.Do you know how ridiculous writing:"Also, the Greek socialist party lost it's first election in a long time in Greece last year, so not every country is re-embracing your crazy (and I mean that in the nicest way  ) socialist ideals..." makes you sound.Talk about the exception proves the rule!

Whats greek for numb f**ker?

Reed Lover wrote: Sweetnighter wrote: . So yes, Rand values human relationships and sees good in friends helping friends, she just doesn't see the rationality behind a decent person walking out into the ghetto to give what he/she rightfully earned to some mumbling beggar that he/she doesn't care about in the slightest. This makes sense. We help people who we care about, and we don't help people who play no role in our lives. Now honestly, what is so hellish about that? Despite what others may think or like to think, she doesn't support a business owner who hooks up with the government so he can employ thousands of people at starving wages legally. Two points here: 1. What makes you think you can spout that offensive nonesense in public? So you only help people you know?? What kind of insensitive, inhumane bollocks is that.What if the boot was on the other foot and America became an arid desert and hadnt enough food to sustain itself.Would you still think that way? People only matter if you know them? You need to take a good look at yourself in the mirror lad. 2.You refer to a beggar as not being "decent" (by inferrence). You are the one who isnt decent if you think that! Shame!  You disgust me. You trot this crap off as if it were all hypothetical, something that only exists in a book.People are out there sleeping rough, in the cold and you think they should be left to rot?? Well done. When did you join the Inhuman Race?

What have I said thats offensive?

Regarding the "people only matter if you know them", yes, I stand by that position. The people I know in my life matter to me! Those I don't know don't matter. How could they? I don't know who they are, what kind of people they are, what they think, how they look, etc etc etc. For all it matters they don't exist. Now that doesn't mean that I'm not sympathetic to suffering or hardship! I gave $20 to the tsunami relief effort. I heard this horrible story on the radio... this woman lost her entire family in the tsunami, and when some men came to her aid from a charitable organization, they raped her. I couldn't believe it... so I send some money overseas. Will I ever see if it does anything? No. Has my life changed as a result of sending the $20? No. I hope that it changed somebody else's life, but I guess I'll never know. Helping those close to you who are in need is much more fulfilling. Can you deny that?

In my example with the beggar I had no intention of having him being depicted as indecent. He could be a nice human being... I was trying to make a different point.

Yes, I realize there are a lot of poor people out there, but welcome to reality people. Sitting behind our computers in the comfort of western society, we have it pretty good, and we're very lucky. Others, on the other hand, don't. But what are you going to do? No superethical power is going to take control and start redistributing wealth. As ideal as that may be for some, it just won't happen. Just. Won't. Happen. The best we can do is rely on the efforts of people who voluntarity go out and help those in need and give the poor the political freedoms necessary to rise up the economic ladder. We can only show them the door... we can't push them through it. And as history has shown, simply showing them the door would be a feat in itself. Bettering society truly starts on the personal level... thats all anybody can do.

Reed Lover wrote: These are not my crazy socialist ideals they happen to be the ideals of my country and much of Europe. Britain has the most bouyant economy in the world at the moment-with a Socialist government.It really sticks in my craw when some under-educated, over-ambitious, money -obsessed young toad like you knocks socialism.What you are actually saying is f**k everyone else.And i mean that in the nicest way-not. Here's an idea-f**k off back to Greece, before that sh*t hole of a country (USA) f**ks up your mind totally.Do you know how ridiculous writing:"Also, the Greek socialist party lost it's first election in a long time in Greece last year, so not every country is re-embracing your crazy (and I mean that in the nicest way  ) socialist ideals..." makes you sound.Talk about the exception proves the rule! Whats greek for numb f**ker?

Why this Reed Lover fellow is QUITE unpleasant.  I'll humor him though...

Under-educated, over-ambitious, money-obsessed young toad?   I wish you could see me right now because I'm laughing my ASS off.  You seem to be so sure of socialism and yet you get so worked up when someone on a message board starts criticising it?  LIGHTEN UP.  I'm not saying "f**k (can we not curse here?) everyone else."  Things aren't that black and white...  not all of England subscribes to socialism.  And I'm not cursing off those that do... I'm just saying that I personally believe that it's a misguided political philosophy.  Obviously, you're a bit insecure about your own beliefs if you allow yourself to fly off the handle that easily.

Also, do you know how ridiculous you sound when you attempt to correct someone on something that was already correct to begin with?  It makes you look pretty silly.  Look at what I wrote again.  NOT EVERY COUNTRY IS RE-EMBRACING.  Then you say talking about the exception proves the rule?!?!?  Ummmm... no, it doesn't.  Just because something is the dominant paradigm does not justify it.  And you call me uneducated?

Congratulations... you have succeeded in making yourself look foolish... 

Edited by John Gargo

When did this place turn into a political forum? Personally, I don't really care what one person's ideals are, so nobody should get angry. Remeber, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

John Gargo wrote: Reed Lover wrote: These are not my crazy socialist ideals they happen to be the ideals of my country and much of Europe. Britain has the most bouyant economy in the world at the moment-with a Socialist government.It really sticks in my craw when some under-educated, over-ambitious, money -obsessed young toad like you knocks socialism.What you are actually saying is f**k everyone else.And i mean that in the nicest way-not. Here's an idea-f**k off back to Greece, before that sh*t hole of a country (USA) f**ks up your mind totally.Do you know how ridiculous writing:"Also, the Greek socialist party lost it's first election in a long time in Greece last year, so not every country is re-embracing your crazy (and I mean that in the nicest way  ) socialist ideals..." makes you sound.Talk about the exception proves the rule! Whats greek for numb f**ker? Why this Reed Lover fellow is QUITE unpleasant.  I'll humor him though... Under-educated, over-ambitious, money-obsessed young toad?   I wish you could see me right now because I'm laughing my ASS off.  You seem to be so sure of socialism and yet you get so worked up when someone on a message board starts criticising it?  LIGHTEN UP.  I'm not saying "f**k (can we not curse here?) everyone else."  Things aren't that black and white...  not all of England subscribes to socialism.  And I'm not cursing off those that do... I'm just saying that I personally believe that it's a misguided political philosophy.  Obviously, you're a bit insecure about your own beliefs if you allow yourself to fly off the handle that easily. Also, do you know how ridiculous you sound when you attempt to correct someone on something that was already correct to begin with?  It makes you look pretty silly.  Look at what I wrote again.  NOT EVERY COUNTRY IS RE-EMBRACING.  Then you say talking about the exception proves the rule?!?!?  Ummmm... no, it doesn't.  Just because something is the dominant paradigm does not justify it.  And you call me uneducated? Congratulations... you have succeeded in making yourself look foolish...

You really think so

Lighten up????????????????????

Cave canem!

This is why we shouldnt share our banale beliefs on a music forum, specially not in the wrong section.

Reed Lover wrote: You are quite new to this arent you!

Actually, I'm quite used to having insults hurled at me on forums for talking politics...  I just wanted to stop before I say something that alienates half the forum... 

Yes, I think this thread has deviated from its original intention.

I'm not going to respond in full to your response to me Reed Lover for fear of inciting more political vehemence, but in short I would tell you that the right wing is not about some grand conspiracy to protect those who are "privelidged" in the world. What if the US wasn't on top? Would I believe something different? I honestly don't know, I'm not in that situation. And if privelidge is a pseudonym for economic inequality, then privelidge is going to be around forever. But enough is enough, lets lay down our guns there.

Thats an interesting point to be made though... why is it that most prog rock groups tend to be politically oriented far left whereas this board has a much more conservative following? Is it just a change in the times, or something else?

Reed Lover wrote: John Gargo wrote: Reed Lover wrote: You are quite new to this arent you! Actually, I'm quite used to having insults hurled at me on forums for talking politics...  I just wanted to stop before I say something that alienates half the forum...  We're already mostly alien on this forum.Surely you realise that a Prog Rock forum is the last refuge of the socially inadequate,socially unacceptable and terminally arrogant.

 

 

We are all kinda  y!

 

 

Reed Lover wrote:

tell me;how does Paris Hilton fit into the scheme of things. Justify her lifestyle to me..if you can.That is what you are promoting with your right wing beliefs.And trust me, she is just the tip of the iceberg.

Reed I was on your side in the part of social sensibility, but when people like you with culture believes in stereotypes something is going wrong.

You say people is starving, I know it, I see them daily, not only in Lima where things more or less work, but in the poorest cities of my country. I'm right oriented and would cut my hand before voting for a communist or socialist, and I'm very far from being rich, I have to work 10 hours a day to barely survive but  I give a good part of my time for free defense of some people who really need it and only charge them the expenses.

How many socialists do this? They sit comfortable in the best cafe's of Lima talking about the Revolution, but they are the first one to accept the US$ 10,000 that they receive as Congressmen when many people live with less than US$ 100 a month, and this same people voted against the reduction of salaries for the Congress.

I seen what socialist Governments did to my country, one of the more wealthy of Latin America before 1968 when a Socialist took the power by the force, the corruption was worst than ever, the farms were given to the workers who killed all the animals and ate all the resources in 6 months and then all were broken.

The so called abusive big companies left our country and 1'000,000 Peruvians lost their jobs, people who were poor but had a decent income turned to starving beggars thanks to the Socialist Government that took the power to protect them.

The rich people became richer, because with the prohibition of imported things they made a fortune forcing Peruvians to buy their third class products at three times the xcost of the same imported item, just because there was no free market.

Perú was the first nation in the world in fish derivate products, the socialist government let everybody fish anything in any moment of the year and in less than a decade the resources didn't existed anymore.

I do believe Paris Hilton is a stupid that has sh!t in her head and it's unfair that a woman who never had to work in her life gets a lot of chances, but there are also rich people who have broke their a$$es working all their life and they deserve what they have.

If Socialism is so perfect why millions of Cubans risk their lives in rafts trying to leave the paradise? Why so many people died trying to cross the Berlin wall to the abusive capitalist world instead of trying to enter to the Socialist heaven?

Nothing in life is black or white, not all the Socialists are better humans that worry for the poor and not all the right wingers are stupid banal a$$hooles that live to support Paris Hilton, there are tones of Gray.

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068