Emerson, Lake and Palmer Appreciation - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

laplace

Prog Reviewer

Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606

Posted: December 25 2006 at 21:01

Who are Emerson Lake and Palmer

Edited by laplace - December 25 2006 at 21:01

richardh

Prog Reviewer

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28085

Posted: December 26 2006 at 03:03

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I honestly can't find the connection between Par Lindh Project and ELP.

ELP is mainly based in late Romantic/early Modern Classical while Par Lindh Project takes late Religious Gothic Music and Baroque.

Keith is very skilled but his technique is not so good (Remember he never had formal musical studies in a conservatory or Music School, only with some private teachers) while Par Lindh is a full musician with complete formation and a solid career as Classical Organ and Piano performer before returning to Prog.

ELP is way over the top, they love the excesses while Par Lind Project create a dark and sober atmosphere.

And Anglagard, reminds me more of Genesis meets King Crimson than ELP.

My two cents.

Iván

I tend to agree Ivan ..although Par is an ELP fan.However he sounds more like Rick Wakeman in style when he plays the piano than Emerson.

Anglagard sound nothing like ELP or any other prog band to my ears.Thats why they are so respected I guess.I would like to see PLP get more recognition as well even if they aren't quite as original.

richardh

Prog Reviewer

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28085

Posted: December 26 2006 at 03:24

My appreciation of ELP started in 1977 when they came back with Works Volume One.Although I didn't like that album I started to go back and get the earlier albums.As a teenager I played Tarkus countless times,especially the live version,but Trilogy and BSS had all that I wanted as well.

ELP were innovative in using the synthesisier and keyboard in prog.They had the the most exciting drummer in rock music and one of the best singers as well.We are talking a real supergroup.One with substance and unbelievable talent.For me their crowning glory is Brain Salad Surgery.Dark lyrics and flowing passages of music that left most of the contemporaries behind.Having hit upon something it seemed that the seeds of their own self destruction were sown.They were always seeking for something new to do but later projects although brave (in the case of Works and the orchestral tour) where not really what the fans wanted.

At their best ELP could combine jazz,classical and rock music..play it at break neck speed and make it look easy.They took the sythesiser and made it their own personal palyground.They broke down barriers with their sheer exhuberance and total inability to recognise any limitations.They were arrogant and pompous but able to do things that other bands could not do..and didnt those other bands know it! They raised the benchmark according to their own talent ..not to where what others thought it should be.They are progressive rock!

Atavachron View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65268

Posted: December 26 2006 at 03:46

Tarkus was the first prog album that made me just sit there and go 'Wow...'

Edited by Atavachron - December 26 2006 at 03:46

raindance

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 24 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 443

Posted: December 26 2006 at 04:39

Only YES were better than ELP!

Easy Livin View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585

Posted: December 26 2006 at 05:42

Could members keep the one liners (humorous or otherwise) to a minimum in threads like this. They are a distraction for those wishing to have a constructive debate.

Simply saying "I like them"/"I don't like them"/"I like another band better" does not stimulate discussion.

erik neuteboom View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 7659

Posted: December 26 2006 at 06:30

Worldwide ELP has influenced many bands, especially the sound of the Hammond organ and Moog synthesizer. I have made this compilation from formations that incorporated ELP elements:

Argentina:

Nexus

Japan:

Deja Vu

Social tension (the Japanese ELP)

Ars Nova

Gerard (trio)

Brasil:

Lehmejum

Germany:

Tritonus

Triumvirat

Collegium Musicum (Czechian ELP)

Italy:

Alluminogeni

Alphataurus

Le Orme (early era)

The Trip

Triade

Standarte (Cursus And Invocations)

Holland:

Trace

Sweden:

Par Lindh Project (Mundus Incompertus)

USA:

Atlantis Philharmonic

By the way, huge respons until so far, Snow Dog, ELP seem to appeal to many Prog Achives visitors, what a surprise

Edited by erik neuteboom - December 26 2006 at 07:08

salmacis

Forum Senior Member

Content Addition

Joined: April 10 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3928

Posted: December 26 2006 at 08:24

Of course they are. I mean, they couldn't be revered as much as they are in prog circles if there weren't fans.

As for them not being influential, I think that's nonsense. The band were very early in terms of utilising then state of the art synthesisers. Not THAT many prog albums from around 1970-1 were using Moogs etc, but Emerson was on 'Lucky Man'. I think it was him and Manfred Mann who perhaps were amongst the earliest to explore it as a rock instrument with solos more akin to guitar solos rather than the more atmospheric, electronic experiments that appeared in the late 60s. Whether they were THE first is doubtful and hard to prove yet it could be heard on, say, 'Tarkus' and 'Pictures At An Exhibition' (that of course they'd been playing since their very first gigs), in greater concentration than I had personally heard elsewhere from before that, at any rate.

endlessepic View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: June 22 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 354

Posted: December 26 2006 at 16:19

ELP is absolutely fantastic progressive rock music. If it were not for them I wouldnt have developed an appreciation for other prog bands. They pioneered everything and managed to be remarkably marketable while doing it. I am kind of an oddball in that I love "Works Vol 1" because it is incredible on a certain few tracks which make the whole album 5 stars, I also do not hate Love Beach. Personal favorite is BSS because KE9 is AWESOME and super fun to drum along to!
Tarkus is pretty decent
The first album is prime!
Trilogy is totally solid
Pictures is psychadelic! And classical...how did they manage that?!!!
Brain Salad Surgery is beyond definition...perfection, even "benny" is good!
ELP is awesome
No doubt about it
!!!

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: December 26 2006 at 17:14

Richardh made some good points about ELP, but my perspective is a bit different.

ELP had more success than the expected because they never were really a band, just an artificial supergroup created joining successful members of different bands but with very little in common.

Emerson: Obsessed with the late Romantic/Early Modern Classical eras, pompous and overblown, a showman.
Lake: Sober calmed with a preference for the simpler ballads
Palmer: A great drummer very versatile with some weakness for Jazz, able to adapt to any style, maybe closer to Keith than to Greg.

This doesn’t mean they were not influential, of course they were, ELP were one of the big 5, but they were never a band that grew and developed a style together as Yes or Genesis, they joined being already big and developed nothing new in their styles, they just blended what they already had.

I believe ELP were really lucky, “Trilogy” and “Brain Salad Surgery” were incredibly good for a supergroup, they sounded absolutely cohesive and coherent. But this was a mirage, I believe they were afraid that they could never make another album as the two previously mentioned, so they took a long break from the studios and their time was over.

Seems that in the late 70’s they were not so interested in band project as in personal projects, this had to happen in any moment as in most supergroups. Emerson and Lake have opposite perspectives about music, while Keith is pompous and Classical oriented, Greg is a ballad singer trapped in a Prog band, his side in Works I is terrible and Keith’s Piano Concerto is not much better, incredibly the best side of this I album is the one by the musician from who I expected the less, Carl Palmer sounds as ELP should had been sounding, even better than the excessively long Pirates and fanfare. .

The case of Works II is even worst, they had signed a contract but were not interested in more band material so they went to the archives and used rejected songs from the Works I project which of course made an even worst album, the rest well was downhill, they were not interested in ELP anymore, and only released Love Beach because they had already been paid for it.

Each certain number of years they joined again when they needed money and released a couple of albums (The horrendous In the Hot Seat and the less than average Black Moon) but they never were a band again, just a trio of excellent musicians forced to play together because they had much more success than in solo projects.

I believe ELP worked for a longer period than any normal supergroup.

Richardh wrote:

I tend to agree Ivan ..although Par is an ELP fan.However he sounds more like Rick Wakeman in style when he plays the piano than Emerson.

Good point, if there’s a song that reminds me of Par Lindh it would be Judas Iscariot by Rick Wakeman before than any ELP stuff..

Iván

spleenache View Drop Down

Forum Groupie

Joined: September 10 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 68

Posted: December 26 2006 at 17:26

I cannot stand Greg Lake's voice. Another big weakness in the band is Carl Palmer. He could not drum his way out of a wet paper bag. They are a hodge podge mixture. Not a group

Chus

Prog Reviewer

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991

Posted: December 26 2006 at 17:44

What about Kansas?... I could really sense something ELP-ish in "Magnum Opus" (what a modest title).. right after Walsh ends the sang part. But I guess they were not as much an influence as Genesis.. also the sang segment sounds a bit like one of Tarkus' movements

Edited by Chus - December 26 2006 at 17:47

Jesus Gabriel

Snow Dog

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995

Posted: December 26 2006 at 18:04

spleenache wrote:

I cannot stand Greg Lake's voice. Another big weakness in the band is Carl Palmer. He could not drum his way out of a wet paper bag. They are a hodge podge mixture. Not a group

This is an appreciation thread. Can you take your ill conceived opinions and get lost?

richardh

Prog Reviewer

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28085

Posted: December 26 2006 at 18:15

spleenache wrote:

I cannot stand Greg Lake's voice. Another big weakness in the band is Carl Palmer. He could not drum his way out of a wet paper bag. They are a hodge podge mixture. Not a group

wrong thread for this (as Snowy pointed out

)

Edited by richardh - December 26 2006 at 18:16

richardh

Prog Reviewer

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28085

Posted: December 26 2006 at 18:36

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Richardh made some good points about ELP, but my perspective is a bit different.

ELP had more success than the expected because they never were really a band, just an artificial supergroup created joining successful members of different bands but with very little in common.

Emerson: Obsessed with the late Romantic/Early Modern Classical eras, pompous and overblown, a showman.
Lake: Sober calmed with a preference for the simpler ballads
Palmer: A great drummer very versatile with some weakness for Jazz, able to adapt to any style, maybe closer to Keith than to Greg.

I believe ELP worked for a longer period than any normal supergroup.

Richardh wrote:

I tend to agree Ivan ..although Par is an ELP fan.However he sounds more like Rick Wakeman in style when he plays the piano than Emerson.

Good point, if there’s a song that reminds me of Par Lindh it would be Judas Iscariot by Rick Wakeman before than any ELP stuff..

Iván

Without really wanting to debate this (wrong thread again) , one of the reasons that Emerson wanted to work with Lake was because he had a very good classical collection.In fact Greg Lake still regularly includes the classical version of Pictures At An Exhibition on his favourite album lists.They had plenty in common in both music taste and musical goals.Sorry but its wrong to suggest otherwise.

This next bit is one of oddest things I've ever seen written about ELP:

''I believe ELP were really lucky, “Trilogy” and “Brain Salad Surgery” were incredibly good for a supergroup, they sounded absolutely cohesive and coherent. But this was a mirage, I believe they were afraid that they could never make another album as the two previously mentioned, so they took a long break from the studios and their time was over.''

Ivan ,the reason that those albums were ''cohesive'' and ''coherent'' is because they actually were! Why should it be a ''mirage''?! I sometimes think people fall into the trap of trying to fit theories around a basic premise instead of just accepting things at face value.

ELP were hot up to a certain point (1974).Then the creative juices stopped flowing.That happens to all bands.There is no stock rule that it should happen after 4 years ,14 years or 24 years.Other bands like Yes benefited from line up changes which helped keep things fresh.ELP were 'just' Emerson,Lake and Palmer and so naturally had a shorter time at the top of their game.This is also quite common for 3 peice bands in prog and rock music that are often more volatile than 4 or 5 peice bands.ie Police and Cream spring to mind.Rush make a notable exception perhaps but there are few other examples I can think of.

Edited by richardh - December 26 2006 at 18:42

Losendos

Forum Senior Member

Joined: June 03 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 571

Posted: December 26 2006 at 19:45

To me Greg Lake has the best voice in prog (great range ) and I'm definetly not a devout ELP man

As far as I know although he liked ballads he has always been an unashamed prog artist by comparison with PG who was about the first to walk away and has never looked back. ( although his pop is creatrive I've never really found it to sound like prog )

Edited by Losendos - December 26 2006 at 19:48

How wonderful to be so profound

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: December 26 2006 at 19:52

richardh wrote:

Well Richard, looking at the most famous Lake songs (Lucky Man & Still you Turn me On) is easy to find where the preferences of Greg were.

If you add Lake's side in Works I and the Lake songs in Works II, it's obvious that songe like Ces't La Vie are not precisely what Keith Emerson will play.

This next bit is one of oddest things I've ever seen written about ELP:

Yes they were cohesive AT THAT POINT, but it was a very short period of time, that's why I call it a mirage, appeared in the horizon and vanished as fast as it appeared, just listening Works I it's clear what each one of them pretended.

Works I is the most unorganized collection of songs I have ever seen, one side for each member is like shouting "Hey we don't want to be a band, we're individuals" and when the three sides are so radically different, it's obvious we're not talking about a cohesive band.

You took the name Rush from my mouth or even The Who (A fake power trio because it was mainly guitar, bass and drums, while Roger Daltrey was mostly a vocalist most of the times), so I believe that the short periods of cohesion is more common in Supergroups.

Remember something, most bands have something in common, all the members start from a similar point and grow together, in Supergroups this doesn't happen, they all have different background and formation, Lake came from King Crimson a mature band where all the members were incredibly capable, Keith Emerson came from The Nice where Keith was the brain and Palmer came from one of the wirdest projects ever like The Crazy World of Arthur Brown that mixed everything.

Now, I like ELP, Trilogy and BSS are masterpieces but with an excellent debut that's all, honestly I never liked Tarkus, Pictures has a lot of merit because they dared to play it but at some points they butcher Mussorgsky masterpiece.

Great band with two solid gold albums IMHO.

Iván

endlessepic View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: June 22 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 354

Posted: December 26 2006 at 23:02

Just a note, in Keith's biography he mentions how much he realized Lakes talent, specifically with "Cest La Vie" and its only natural with the bassist/singer to write songs with a guitar in hand which gives a specific sound. I am a guitarist/keyboardist/drummer and when I write songs on guitar they tend to be more singer/songwriter, when I write with piano - it turns out to be more prog/classical, when I write while playing drums it is usually beat oriented with complex time signatures, not that the three don't intertwine, but for each one they come to a differant conclusion. Lake isn't going to write something like "Tarkus" because that would be the last thing someone would think to write on a guitar, just like keith isnt going to write a strumming song on his piano (with the exception of the opening of "take a pebble...lol) Just because they sound differant when solo doesnt mean they werent working toward a common sound.
Good discussion though
:)

Chus

Prog Reviewer

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991

Posted: December 27 2006 at 00:38

endlessepic wrote:

Just a note, in Keith's biography he mentions how much he realized Lakes talent, specifically with "Cest La Vie" and its only natural with the bassist/singer to write songs with a guitar in hand which gives a specific sound. I am a guitarist/keyboardist/drummer and when I write songs on guitar they tend to be more singer/songwriter, when I write with piano - it turns out to be more prog/classical, when I write while playing drums it is usually beat oriented with complex time signatures, not that the three don't intertwine, but for each one they come to a differant conclusion. Lake isn't going to write something like "Tarkus" because that would be the last thing someone would think to write on a guitar, just like keith isnt going to write a strumming song on his piano (with the exception of the opening of "take a pebble...lol) Just because they sound differant when solo doesnt mean they werent working toward a common sound.Good discussion though:)

exactly... that's why good songwritters usually tend to compose with a piano, because it gives you a more linear perspective and you can come up with more creative harmonies and counterpoints... of course there are exceptions... but with the piano you could come up with amazing dissonant harmonies in intervals of seconds and fourths (the fact that you could hit more notes of the chord that gives the harmony more completion). sometimes I sit at the piano and try to play the composer

... I leave the piano a bit amazed... with the guitar I feel blocked most of the time.

My father is an arranger and although he doesn't play the piano he has to use it as guide

Edited by Chus - December 27 2006 at 00:39

Jesus Gabriel

richardh

Prog Reviewer

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28085

Posted: December 27 2006 at 05:41

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

richardh wrote:

Well Richard, looking at the most famous Lake songs (Lucky Man & Still you Turn me On) is easy to find where the preferences of Greg were.

If you add Lake's side in Works I and the Lake songs in Works II, it's obvious that songe like Ces't La Vie are not precisely what Keith Emerson will play.

This next bit is one of oddest things I've ever seen written about ELP:

Great band with two solid gold albums IMHO.

Iván

The last statement I agree 100% . The Works period is 'fair game'.They had lost a lot at that moment but there were indiviudal disasters that got in the way especially re Emerson who had become addicted to heroine at one point,became seperated from his wife and even his house burned down! I believe they were in the process of recording solo albums but the record company did not want them as three solo artists but rather as a band.Hence the muddle that was Works Volume One.I do like Pirates though and would consider that one of their better efforts and certainly their last worthwhile offering as a band.