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Borealis 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 06 2005
Location: Neutral Zone
Status: Offline
Points: 599
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 Posted: September 03 2006 at 20:53 |
^ Velvet Room posters haven't come here yet. Do they feel concerned, or it's too boring ?... 
we have produced a generation that expects endless entertainment, and instant gratification via shallow materialism and fashion.
Right on, Peter. What I am the most affraid is not the lack of interest in history (of course, there's a minimum requiered! Nothing in the example posted above should be accepted! You know, not everyone should or has interest in that...), its more about no desire of evolving, growing up spiritually or intellectually. Some said all they can talk about is beer, girl, rock'n'roll and ect... NO, they can't even do that! They says absolutely abything constructive, just throw up a couple of easy cliché all the time and share them with people that think the same too! It's just the 'I get a work, fund a familly, I die' thing. That's ALL.
In Québec's CEJEP (two-three year long school we usually enter at 17), There's is Philosophy class. We are one of the few place in the world that have the oppotunity of having philosophy classes at this low age. And I love those classes! But well, I am of the the very few that doesn't hate it! That make me crazy of seeing them... No one listen, they all are tired and frustrated and fix the clock so the class end. And I won't says what I hear from them... so stupid...
But, isn't this what the governement wants? Dumb workers that keeps their machines running without asking a question, or wanting an answer?
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Vive le Québec libre!...
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: September 03 2006 at 22:38 |
 Borealis wrote:
In Québec's CEJEP (two-three year long school we usually enter at 17), There's is Philosophy class. We are one of the few place in the world that have the oppotunity of having philosophy classes at this low age. And I love those classes! But well, I am of the the very few that doesn't hate it! That make me crazy of seeing them... No one listen, they all are tired and frustrated and fix the clock so the class end. And I won't says what I hear from them... so stupid...
But, isn't this what the governement wants? Dumb workers that keeps their machines running without asking a question, or wanting an answer? |
Well, I'm not really anti-democratic, or anti capitalist (though I'm more socialist than many of our American friends might like), but the system certainly has its evils. (I think it was it Churchill that said "democracy is a terrible system, but it's the best one we have.") Capitalism needs the working, ignorant, unprotesting poor (much like tobacco companies need addicts, oil companies need vans and SUVs, and drug companies need disease -- there is mega $$$ in treating cancer and AIDS, but obviously much less in permanently eradicating them), and they grease the wheels of the military-industrial war machine, too.
To quote (VDGG) Peter Hammill's Lemmings:
Yes, I know it's
out of control, out of control:
greasy machinery slides on the rails,
young minds and bodies on steel spokes impaled.
Cogs tearing bones, cogs tearing bones;
iron-throated monsters are forcing the screams,
mind and machinery box-press the dreams.
'Twas ever thus, at least since Caesar provided "bread and circuses" to endear himself to the masses.
Billy Bragg sings:
"You keep buying these things but you don't need them
But as long as you're comfortable it feels like freedom
My American friends don't know what to do
But they'll wait a long time for a Beverley Hills coup
War! What is it good for
It's good for business"
("North Sea Bubble")
Who was in Tianamen Square, pushing for rights and change? University students -- the educated, who had learned of the outside world, history, and philosophy.
Who was used to scatter, squash and slaughter those students? A peasant army -- uneducated former farm boys and urban poor from the outer provinces.
Students in France... Teachers in Mexico.... the informed are dangerous to the staus quo!
Opressive power structures fear an educated, informed population -- with good reason.
Change (living wages, health care, etc) is not good for the shareholders and the "bottom line."
As Doctor Martin Luther King Jr knew only too well, rights, freedoms and priviledges are not simply given to anyone -- they are painfully earned through blood, suffering and sacrifice. Corporations and governments (much the same people) change how they do business (salads at MacDonald's, tuna that does not lead to the needless slaughter of dolphins, unbleached paper towels, paper from hemp, etc.) only when an educated population -- their customers -- demand, with their dollars, that they do so. (Do you think the popularity of "Supersize Me" had nothing to do with the sudden appearance of low-fat menu choices at Ronald MacDonald land?) We make the change happen when we stop silently (like placid, dumb sheep, or lemmings) swallowing their lies, buying their poisons, or voting for their bloated, corrupt, oil and weapons company-owning politicians.
In the meantime, however, the more people who say "I don't wanna know" or "it doesn't affect me" or "the school didn't teach me right," or "there's nothing I can do" the better THEY like it! Why listen to the news when you can listen to your MP3 player, and spend all day bleating "chatting" about nothing on the web?
It is said that "ignorance is bliss" -- but that bliss is not reserved for the ignorant, but for those with a vested interest in perpetuating mass ignorance.
Stupidity kills.
Survivor. American Idol. "Reality" TV. Bigger cars. Win a makeover. Lottery tickets. Cheaper gas for the long weekend....
Heads in the sand = skulls in the desert sand.
Same old "bread and circuses" -- too bad for the gladiators.... 
Edited by Peter Rideout - September 04 2006 at 11:47
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: September 03 2006 at 23:14 |
Borealis wrote:
^ Velvet Room posters haven't come here yet. Do they feel concerned, or it's too boring ?...
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I think you'll find I did!   Look on the first page.
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Forgotten Son
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1356
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Posted: September 04 2006 at 00:51 |
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To be frank, I doubt that generally people have become more stupid or ignorant. As I see it there's always been a ratio of knowledgable to ignorant people and this has remained constant, but because of increasing populations and an increasingly globalised media we are exposed to more ignorance. That doesn't mean that there hasn't been an increase in intelligent, knowedgable people as well, though.
I think every generation thinks the younger one shows declining morals, intelligence etc.
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
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Posted: September 04 2006 at 07:45 |
There isn't a great deal I can add here which hasn't already been covered eloquently by Peter & James, particularly regarding the lack of books (yes - proper physical paper & ink books) actually being read these days.
In my opinion, one quality missing in a large proportion of modern youth is respect; both for others, and increasingly for oneself. This may or may not be the case, but I feel respect can be directly linked to the lack of discipline at school and, more importantly, at home - I am not referring here to physical discipline such as corporal punishment but instilling the qualities of self control & common courtesy; these two qualities lead (in my humble opinion) to respect, both for oneself and for others. Remember - if you don't respect yourself, you cannot expect others to respect you - long ago, some bearded proto-hippy said we should treat others as we'd like to be treated ourselves - not a bad philosophy, eh?
Mind you, they did nail the poor bugger to a tree for saying it, though 
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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chopper
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20029
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Posted: September 04 2006 at 08:44 |
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I can understand people not learning about Churchill at school (as far as I remember I only did up to WWI at my school) but to get to adulthood (a) not knowing that Churchill is our most famous PM and (b) believing the US has had a black president called Winston Churchill just beggars belief. Not to mention the fact that she thought he was black because his statue was black!
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Dreamer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005
Location: Amsterdam
Status: Offline
Points: 297
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 08:32 |
There are people in my class who don't know the difference between left and right wing... They're almost at a voting age, and they're complete ignorants! It's actually embarassing to hear them asking the teacher to explain.. 
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 12:27 |
Dreamer wrote:
There are people in my class who don't know the difference between left and right wing... |
Living in a country evidently ruled by different levels of middle management, it's becoming increasingly difficult to tell the difference here, too 
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 12:41 |
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Public education in the United States is a failed system.*
That being said, my wife and I moved into an area of Pennsylvania that supposedly has a very good public school system. What my son (and subsequent siblings to be named later) doesn't learn in the school we'll teach him ourselves. I have strong views about what kids should be learning, and at what pace, particularly in mathematics and science (because I've chosen a career in these fields). The bottom line is children could be challenged a lot more and be learning at a faster pace than the one set by current school curricula. Parental involvement in childhood education is critical.
* Statistics in the form of test scores actually show the United States educates its children quite well compared to the rest of the world until about age 10, after which there is a marked decline such that by the time they are 18, they are significiantly behind.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 13:31 |
I do find it sad just how little people know about history/geography.
I was able to name every US president, while one friend of mine knew like 5 (obviously Washington and Lincoln and also George W Bush and Bill Clinton)  
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 13:50 |
JJLehto wrote:
I do find it sad just how little people know about history/geography.
I was able to name every US president, while one friend of mine knew like 5 (obviously Washington and Lincoln and also George W Bush and Bill Clinton)
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I bet very few USA kids believe that Nixon was the only President involved in an impeachment, some will remeber that Clinton was at the border and almost none will know about Andrew Johnson
If you ask the which Presidents were assasinated during their period most of them will aswer Kennedy and Lincoln, I doubt many know about James Garfield (Probably will belñieve he was the first cat President  ) and William Mc Kinley.
Ask them and you'll know it's truth.
Iván
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 13:57 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I bet very few USA kids believe that Nixon was the only President involved in an impeachment, some will remeber that Clinton was at the border and almost none will know about Andrew Johnson
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Clinton was impeached, as was Andrew Johnson. The Senate voted in both cases not to remove them from office. Nixon resigned before the impeachment proceedings in the House were concluded, therefore he was technically not impeached.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 14:07 |
I don't know whether it will be of any comfort to people like Peter or the others who are appalled at the utter lack of learning of the younger generations, but I feel I have to relate what happened to me just yesterday morning, while I was travelling on a regional train from Calabria to Naples. Three girls were sitting right opposite me, and they were going to Rome to take an entry test in order to study at university. They were revising and doing sample tests... My goodness, their ignorance was absolutely appalling, and they were not teenagers anymore! They really had no clue about lots of important cultural events in Italian and European history - and this is Europe, for heaven's sake, not to mention a country that is prone to the habit of turning up its nose at other, 'newer' countries (as I often saw when living in Finland). How very, very sad... 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 17:12 |
NaturalScience wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I bet very few USA kids believe that Nixon was the only President involved in an impeachment, some will remeber that Clinton was at the border and almost none will know about Andrew Johnson
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Clinton was impeached, as was Andrew Johnson. The Senate voted in both cases not to remove them from office. Nixon resigned before the impeachment proceedings in the House were concluded, therefore he was technically not impeached.
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That's why I said Impeachment procedures and not impeached.
Precisely I mentioned the impeachment and Assasination of Presidents because I made my first degree thesis about Removal and Vacancy of the President and one of te Constitutions I used to refer to a Presidential Government was oprecisely USA.
In Nixon's case the impeachment procedures stated, but he resigned if an anticipate pardon was granted to him to avoid the voting and sure removal plus probable imprisonment, something that was accepted to avoid a worst scandal.
But this is something that every school student in USA should know, this is your country.
Your quote was precise.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 05 2006 at 17:13
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KoS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 18:03 |
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 23:35 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I bet very few USA kids believe that Nixon was the only President
involved in an impeachment, some will remeber that Clinton was at the
border and almost none will know about Andrew Johnson
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Clinton was impeached, as was Andrew
Johnson. The Senate voted in both cases not to remove them from
office. Nixon resigned before the impeachment proceedings in the
House were concluded, therefore he was technically not impeached.
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That's why I said Impeachment procedures and not impeached.
Precisely I mentioned the impeachment and Assasination of
Presidents because I made my first degree thesis about Removal and
Vacancy of the President and one of te Constitutions I used to refer to
a Presidential Government was oprecisely USA.
In Nixon's case the impeachment procedures stated, but he
resigned if an anticipate pardon was granted to him to avoid the
voting and sure removal plus probable imprisonment, something that was
accepted to avoid a worst scandal.
But this is something that every school student in USA should know, this is your country.
Your quote was precise.
Iván
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I have no doubt you know much more about US History than a good majority of the high school graduates in this country.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 23:39 |
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I can tell you that our high school focuses much more on 20th-21st century American History, not 18th-19th Century. We hit the big issues like The Revoutionary War, the War of 1812, The Civil War and so on, but fact such as the impeachment of Andrew Jackson are considered rather inconsequential at the high school level.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 23:54 |
NaturalScience wrote:
I have no doubt you know much more about US History than a good majority of the high school graduates in this country.
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It's not me Natural Science, the only advantage to leave in a country like Perú (Well there are a lot bit not for the majorities), is that we have to learn from the rest of the world, so our education system (That is far from good except in private schools) tries to give a view of the rest of the world and most Peruvians see USA as the center of the world.
I'm sure every Latin American kid knows that Washington is the capital of USA but how many USA students know that Lima, Quito and La Paz are the capitals of Perú, Ecuador and Bolivia?
The problem of USA school system is that you are in fact the most powerful nation and the education system doesn't care about many things like hitory of the resyt of the world or even your own history.
Being a bit more humble will allow students to learn more about the rest of the world.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 05 2006 at 23:54
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The Lost Chord
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1907
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 00:06 |
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I KNEW he was black, i knew it
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 01:17 |
The Lost Chord wrote:
I KNEW he was black, i knew it |
Off course he was black, but he wasn't the president of the US, he was first lady after Margaret Tatcher in the UK.
silly boy
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Winston Churchill was black
