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MikeEnRegalia 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21714
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 Posted: August 13 2006 at 12:32 |
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Rottenhat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 14 2006
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 436
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 12:33 |
Hi all! My humble opinion is that we shouldn't get too much involved into trying to fit every band into a musical style. I wouldn't even consider a whole album of some band to belong to the same style, and even less their whole discography. I think this forum is sometimes a bit obsessed about putting bands in categories and putting them in an order from best to worst. A good example of a band hard to catigorize would be King Crimson. Some tracks are (almost) straight rockers, others more symphonic, and some tracks almost avant-garde free jams.
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Language is a virus from outer space.
-William S. Burroughs
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11985
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 12:34 |
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Ray Lomas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 187
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 12:40 |
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I like the ideas about heavy progressive and progressive pop genres.
However, I wouldn't recommend creating very many sub-genres anymore. I think there are enough sub-genres already.
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
Status: Offline
Points: 5308
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 12:41 |
 MattiR wrote:
Trickster F. wrote:
Death are here because of their last four albums. They are indeed one of the initial pioneers of Death Metal, and their first two releases had nothing in common with Prog. |
Yeah, let's make another Metal-archives!  You don't see differences between technical death metal (like mentioned "Human" and "Individual Thought Patterns") and progressive metal ("The Sound of Perseverance" - maybe). "Symbolic" is also regarded as a thrash metal album. Why shouldn't we put more pretendedly progressive bands like Morbid Angel, Nocturnus, Tiamat, King Diamond, Bathory, Mayhem etc. I don't understand why Edge of Sanity is on PA? Only one issue ("Crimson") can be called progressive. The rest of stuff are typical death metal... Isn't it stupid? |
Of course, let's include all the Metal bands that deserve the prefix "Prog". That's exactly what the Prog-Metal Team is up to.
To my knowledge, nobody called Symbolic just thrash metal, as it has clearly been much more progressive than that. As for the other three, TSoP is surely the Death album that most closely awakens associations with Prog-Metal, but it has been the PMT's and many others' verdict that Human and ITP are as progressive as Atheist's or Pestilence's(soon to come) albums.
The bands you mentioned afterwards have almost nothing else in common, however, Mayhem had a progressive album in Declaration, everything I have no idea why you brought up.
I happen to agree with you on EoS though. The only thing progressive about Crimson is that it is a 40 minute Death Metal song with elements from other kinds of music included. However, Crimson's successor is a much more progressive album and has moments of pretention and virtuosity the initial album had not. Everything else I wouldn't dare call progressive myself(I think I underlined that in the very first review I made for the site back in February).
MattiR wrote:
Trickster F. wrote:
However, that would be like complaining about why Invisible Touch is here, get my example? |
Because PA is professional music portal presenting the full biography of one of the most important progressive bands... |
Good answer.
Death is a crucial addition for their historic importance as a PROG-METAL band, just like Genesis is one for Classic Symphonic prog.
MattiR wrote:
Power noise is also experimental. Why isn't it on PA?
"Vargnatt", split with Mysticum, "Bergtatt" and "Nattens Madrigal" are metal albums (sometimes mistaken with black metal), "Kveldssanger" - neofolk, "Themes..." - experimental industrial metal, the rest of albums are mostly electronic stuff... not so much progressive.
I'm not against such bands, but let's change the name - not Progarchives but Musicarchives |
Don't ask me, I am not a Power Noise specialist!
Ulver is here because as far they abandoned their early Metal albums, they still kept the Rock influence and used it in further albums, most importantly Themes, Blood Inside. Everything else only further proves them to be a Prog band, although under Progressive Electronic and Post-Rock genres. I like your observation about their early stuff, which I agree with 100%, however, don't you think being in an Experimental Industrial Metal band does not equal to being progressive?
And do you honestly believe that Themes is just that, Experimental Industrial?
Edited by Trickster F. - August 13 2006 at 12:42
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
Status: Offline
Points: 5308
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 12:42 |
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 13:09 |
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I don't know that the Sound of Perseverance is any more prog than any of the later actual Death albums... it's differently styled for sure but still mainly relying on tech riffs... that said I haven't listened to either for several months.
And to anyone doubting Ulver's place here... if I were to choose five metal bands to be here Ulver would be one of them.
Edited by goose - August 13 2006 at 13:13
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 13:16 |
 I think we need to concentrate on the Art Rock category more than anything, because now it just means anything! Rush and VDGG in the same category?  I understand the sentiment, but it isn't making categorizing any easier. In fact, it's more like a micorcosm of Prog Archives without any categoriies at all.
I liked the idea that was brought up a few months ago about creating a "Dark Prog" or something similar in nature for bands such as VdGG and KC.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21714
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 13:17 |
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RaphaelT
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 17 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 1453
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 13:53 |
I object against MattiR's idea of changing the name into Musicarchives - it is too general, Progarchives gives clear message "This is the place of prog, and not any other style".
The trouble with prog metal is that usually it is metal band becoming prog, not the opposite, so there is always the first album which is thrash, death, doom, black or whatever. But if there is one album that definitely is progressive, I think we can add the band to PA, and just show which album is the peak of their progressiveness. And if someone drops a review of strictly metal album, I don't think that anyone should feel hurt or offended. Being a proghead means having an open mind and tolerance towards novelties in good music.
Now, the issue of art rock. I am against dividing the classical prog music, that was created in 70s into separate genres. It is just anachronical, there was great bunch of people in Britain who decided to rock the classics or classicize the rock - they shared the same ideas and did not care whether the music they made was psychedelic or art rock or symphonic. Of course there is always an exception, and for me they are krautrock (developed parallelly to prog in Germany) and Zeuhl, for which english influences was not that crucial, maybe because of isolation.
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yet you still have time!
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21714
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 14:06 |
RaphaelT wrote:
But if there is one album that definitely is progressive, I think we can add the band to PA, and just show which album is the peak of their progressiveness. |
And that's exactly the problem: There is no way to do that.
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RaphaelT
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 17 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 1453
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 14:35 |
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So maybe the solution is to include in description the album which decided the admission to the site and maybe update the description after few reviews??
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yet you still have time!
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 7659
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 14:37 |
I am glad with the support in this thread for the genres/categories progressive pop and heavy progressive, I strongly have the idea that this will help to make this site less confusing.
Another point: we have prog folk so why there is oppostion against Jimi Hendrix and The Doors, this is progressive blues, why yes to folk and no to blues? It's just a question to get things clear, I like to work in a consequent way and keep on asking until I am convinced.
Tomorrow I will have time to present my 'final categorie/genre list', based upon the reactions in this thread and my own ideas.
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MattiR
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 1200
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 15:05 |
Trickster F. wrote:
Of course, let's include all the Metal bands that deserve the prefix "Prog". That's exactly what the Prog-Metal Team is up to. |
They are hundreds...
Trickster F. wrote:
To my knowledge, nobody called Symbolic just thrash metal, as it has clearly been much more progressive than that. As for the other three, TSoP is surely the Death album that most closely awakens associations with Prog-Metal, but it has been the PMT's and many others' verdict that Human and ITP are as progressive as Atheist's or Pestilence's(soon to come) albums. |
Pestilence? No, please...  Metal fans will be laughing at us soon.
Trickster F. wrote:
The bands you mentioned afterwards have almost nothing else in common, however, Mayhem had a progressive album in Declaration, everything I have no idea why you brought up. |
They are as progressive as Death.
Trickster F. wrote:
Death is a crucial addition for their historic importance as a PROG-METAL band, just like Genesis is one for Classic Symphonic prog. |
But Death has only ONE progressive album, Genesis much more... Fans visiting PA get information - Death is a progressive band and its first albums are weak and not worth listening to. Important question - may I add a review of "Scream Bloody Gore" giving it maximum points? I couldn't give this album less points, for me it's one of the greatest works in metal ever and it is one of the most important albums in death metal history. But it is NOT "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive music". Do you understand my complains now?
Trickster F. wrote:
Ulver is here because as far they abandoned their early Metal albums, they still kept the Rock influence and used it in further albums, most importantly Themes, Blood Inside. Everything else only further proves them to be a Prog band, although under Progressive Electronic and Post-Rock genres. I like your observation about their early stuff, which I agree with 100%, however, don't you think being in an Experimental Industrial Metal band does not equal to being progressive?
And do you honestly believe that Themes is just that, Experimental Industrial? |
Ulver has been walking his own mysterious paths, nobody knows what will be next step, including musicians. Ulver is beyond all music genres, it's impossible to univocally describe their music... What is the purpose putting Ulver in one category?  Ulver has recorded some noise stuff - for example "Crack Bug" on "1993-2003: 1st Decade In The Machines".
RaphaelT wrote:
I object against MattiR's idea of changing the name
into Musicarchives - it is too general, Progarchives gives clear
message "This is the place of prog, and not any other style". |
"This is the place of prog, and not any other style" so what the hell death metal is doing here? Could you explain me that?
RaphaelT wrote:
The trouble with prog metal is that usually it
is metal band becoming prog, not the opposite, so there is always the
first album which is thrash, death, doom, black or whatever. But if
there is one album that definitely is progressive, I think we can add
the band to PA, and just show which album is the peak of their
progressiveness. And if someone drops a review of strictly metal album,
I don't think that anyone should feel hurt or offended. Being a
proghead means having an open mind and tolerance towards novelties in
good music. |
The better solution is adding only progressive albums, not whole discographies.
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 15:40 |
MattiR wrote:
The better solution is adding only progressive albums, not whole discographies. |
This is a very good idea, and it will spare both members and newcomers
much confusion. It would allow us to remove, for example, all Queen's
non-Prog albums of the '80s, aswell as the non-Prog Genesis albums, and
allow the site and its users to focus on Prog. We are, after all, not
here to review Pop albums, are we?
Edited by Philéas - August 13 2006 at 15:42
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 7659
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 15:40 |
That's another good point, adding only the prog albums, not the entire discographie.
About the name Prog Archives: looking at the bands it should be Progressive Music Archives because many bands lack the ingredient 'rock' (like folk, electronic).
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
Status: Offline
Points: 5308
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 15:56 |
MattiR wrote:
Trickster F. wrote:
Death is a crucial addition for their historic importance as a PROG-METAL band, just like Genesis is one for Classic Symphonic prog. |
But Death has only ONE progressive album, Genesis much more...
Fans visiting PA get information - Death is a progressive band and its first albums are weak and not worth listening to.
Important question - may I add a review of "Scream Bloody Gore" giving it maximum points? I couldn't give this album less points, for me it's one of the greatest works in metal ever and it is one of the most important albums in death metal history. But it is NOT "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive music". Do you understand my complains now? |
You feel free to do whatever you like, as the site allows everyone to express their opinions, even those who lack common sense. You pointed it out correctly, Scream Bloody Gore is not a masterpiece of progressive music as it has nothing to do with it, so it would make sense to give it three stars then, or maybe four, whichever way you like. Hell, you can give it the maximum rating, saying that it was a crucial point in the history of DM and that's why it is progressive music - it progressed music, and nobody will do anything about your review because it is your opinion and it is just as worthy of existance as any other.
However, I, on part of all other Death listeners, will tell you that Death recorded FOUR Prog-Metal albums and those four justify their inclusion here. If you see Thrash in those albums, there is nothing I can do, as I am a human being and am unable to alter the way your perception for music works.
Metalheads will laugh at us? In the end, I'll be the only one laughing, as we are the Prog-Metal team, we set the rules here - according to our experience, beliefs and goals.
MattiR wrote:
Ulver has been walking his own mysterious paths, nobody knows what will be next step, including musicians. Ulver is beyond all music genres, it's impossible to univocally describe their music... What is the purpose putting Ulver in one category?
Ulver has recorded some noise stuff - for example "Crack Bug" on "1993-2003: 1st Decade In The Machines". |
Well, what's the other way around? A band needs a category in order to be present in some shape or form in the archives. There has been a lot of talk about their position in your absence, and the decision has been taken towards Experimental/Post-Rock, as they have got two Post-Rock albums and have essentially been Experimental throughout their career.
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The Green Tank
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 06 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 244
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 16:14 |
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I don't think proto-prog albums should be allowed on the top 100. I'm sick on seeing Abbey Road on there, it's not a prog album!
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eugene
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 30 2005
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 2703
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 18:04 |
erik neuteboom wrote:
About the name Prog Archives: looking at the bands it should be Progressive Music Archives because many bands lack the ingredient 'rock' (like folk, electronic). |
I agree with this. But not necessarily folk or electronics, there are many bands with strong classical influences which simply cannot be described as "rock" anymore.
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carefulwiththataxe
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WaywardSon
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 2537
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 18:11 |
Philéas wrote:
MattiR wrote:
The better solution is adding only progressive albums, not whole discographies. |
This is a very good idea, and it will spare both members and newcomers much confusion. It would allow us to remove, for example, all Queen's non-Prog albums of the '80s, aswell as the non-Prog Genesis albums, and allow the site and its users to focus on Prog. We are, after all, not here to review Pop albums, are we?
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I also like this idea a lot, only one slight problem, what happens when there are one or two great progressive songs on the removed non prog albums?
But it would be great to clear out the rubbish, Hot Space etc 
Edited by WaywardSon - August 13 2006 at 18:11
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