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Classic Era Prog Drummers |
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BaldFriede 
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Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10266 |
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 Posted: May 21 2021 at 05:06 |
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I see you just joined. Welcome to the forum!
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18384 |
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Posted: May 21 2021 at 07:20 |
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Hi, I always thought that his introduction to the band, for a tryout was special ... and really ... it said it all! He, supposedly walked up to the drum set, threw the pieces everywhere in the room and then said (something like) ... I'm done! Any questions? Right then, you could easily say that the normal standard and style for drums was not going to be done or used ... unlike today, that most drummers only know how to hit a snare drum since they don't know how to use the rest of the stuff ... I remember that one guy from DT ... he had so many drums he never used that it was pathetic ... And Moonie became known for throwing his drums around and destroying them in concert ... with one ... slight detail ... Legs Larry Smith of the BONZO DOG BAND had already been doing that for some time ... and it was a highlight of their show! And the BBB opened for The Who a lot of times!
Edited by moshkito - May 21 2021 at 07:24 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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richardh
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Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 29991 |
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Posted: May 22 2021 at 00:06 |
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Who's Next surely answered any questions about Moon's ability. I also enjoy The Who By Numbers a lot. I can't imagine those albums without Moon. Mad genius if ever there was.
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BrufordFreak
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Posted: May 26 2021 at 16:14 |
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(Forgot I created this thread  )I first heard Moerlen on Angel's Egg and You and was immediately impressed. He already had a Steve Gadd-like composure and maturity that was undeniable--as if he was the only musician among a bunch of free-wheeling amateurs. And, yes, Paice, Bonham, and Moon are not from what I would call "progressive rock" bands (though Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin and The Who, I believe, provided tremendous inspiration to prog rock musicians.) |
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
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BrufordFreak
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Posted: May 26 2021 at 16:18 |
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YES! it is the space and creative syncopation--the ability to feel and play "beats" within music in unexpected places that I love--why I love Indian tabla, Bill Bruford, Steve Jansen, Mark Heron, and Huxflux Nettermalm (and not metronomic timekeepers)! |
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
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BrufordFreak
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Posted: May 26 2021 at 16:23 |
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Agreed!
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
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BrufordFreak
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Posted: May 26 2021 at 16:35 |
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Please help educate me as to why Jaki Liebezeit is such a marvel. I do not hear it. (In fact, I hear nothing worthy of superlatives in anything by Can. Is it our differing cultural heritages? Our different conditioning?)
Guldbamsen throws out names that are very Eurocentric while myself, Motown born and bred, had never heard any of the non-British, European prog of the Classic Era until 2008. But, I am trying! And I do love me some What's Going On and Soul Train! |
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18384 |
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Posted: May 26 2021 at 16:52 |
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Hi, Kinda easy ... but you have to have some patience. You listen to the "Bel Air" (Future Days) and then "Chain Reaction" and "Quantum Physics" (Soon Over Babaluma) and you MUST stay on it and pay attention to the drumming a bit. How he slows down, and brings just a slight touch in the middle and then slowly brings things back up ... it is one thing that most drummers are not capable of doing ... not working on the "beat" with a snare drum, and instead just doing a very slight touch here and there and helping carry the flow of the music. In many ways, his drumming is different, although in the earlier days of Ege Bamyasi the funk stuff is really difficult to address, from a drumming perspective, but it was tight, and he augmented Damo really well, and allowed him space as well. That is NOT what most drummers do, in most rock bands when they continue their usual 4/4 beat with the snare drum ... and they do not know when to allow for the sensitivity of the singer, or another instrument to shine, in other words, then the beat keeping drumming is not necessary. Prog drummers are a tough discussion all around ... because the really good ones are not always appreciated as much as they should ... folks like Peter Leopold/Danny Fichelscher for example, were not just pounders on the drums either ... listen to "The Marilyn Monroe" thing (Dance of the Lemmings) and you find that the drumming is not tied to a beat or anything ... it is tied to a specific feeling about what is happening in the music itself, and the accents and moments are exciting and far out ... a total freedom that is not found in 90% of all the bands out there ... The only issue I have with some of these drummers is that too many of them are simple metronomic counters and nothing else ... and the best music is NOT tied down to a beat ... the best music flies and changes and changes and changes, and its beat ends up somewhere else so the music is colored in a very special way. We're so stuck on a commercial sounding metronomic style that we think some of those drummers are good, and for all intents and purposes, you don't need them ... a drum machine will suffice, thank you!
Edited by moshkito - May 26 2021 at 16:53 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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richardh
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Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 29991 |
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Posted: June 23 2021 at 00:23 |
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I don't think prog fans look for 'metronomic' in their drummers at all but sometimes precision and accuracy is a wonderful thing. Of course it depends on the music and what you are trying to create and the skill of the players. There are very few modern drummers that have the chops of a Carl Palmer or Neil Peart so they will be limited. But what's been done from a drumming perspective has been done in the classic era mainly. The modern era just doesn't get it and most prog musicians have to survive on scraps and embrace a certain amount of commercialism. That said I'm just listening to Frost* 'Day and Age' and very much enjoying Kaz Rodriguez work on that! (btw there are 3 drummers on that album inc Pat Mastelotto and Darby Todd)
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suitkees
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Posted: June 23 2021 at 05:30 |
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Is Terry Bozzio "classic" enough? Two Zappa pieces: or |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Lewian
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Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Online Points: 15352 |
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Posted: June 23 2021 at 06:15 |
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Best piece of drumming ever. And this together with a rhythm machine. Jaki explains himself: Edited by Lewian - June 23 2021 at 06:22 |
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siLLy puPPy
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PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15399 |
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Posted: June 23 2021 at 07:07 |
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NEIL PERT! 2112 came out in 1976! CHRISTIAN VANDER! Gianchi Stringa on YS from Il Baletto di Bronzo also deserves kudos
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 https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18384 |
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Posted: June 24 2021 at 10:51 |
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The part that scares me, is that we end up thinking that Pierre Moerlin, or Moonie, or Bonzo, did not have the "accuracy", which to me suggests that "accuracy" is an idea that has little to do with the actual life of the music ... it is being used strictly to setup a solo or sustain other musicians that otherwise would be uncomfortable with a drummer that was more "educated" and "smarter" than simply maintaining a beat.
Those two did not have "chops" ... they did not need them, because what they did was to accentuate the music which made it different from everyone else's. Carl was specially adept at making sure that the poetic way that Greg sang things were accentuated better so to make the lyrics more valuable and important, which made Greg sound a lot better than conventional singers. You KNEW what the lyrics meant and you UNDERSTOOD what it was all about because it was colored properly, and not with just a run of the mill stupid snare drum beat that never changes in so many bands, even when the music is different! That's all you need to really know ... how someone that appreciates lyrics adds to the whole thing, not just keeping a beat. Bonzo, more than likely, also made room for Robert's singing, and added to it! Both Carl and Neil were not worried about their buddies missing a beat at all ... and they knew how to continue and adjust if they had to which is what a good "drummer" will do, instead of the hackers that simply continue their snare beat to make sure everyone is on the dime! As an example, Mani (Guru Guru) used to say that he never played drums to the bass ... he was always along with the guitar, and it really showed in the early days a lot more than later. This is the part of "music" that is not appreciated in conventional/commercial sounding groups and their "fans", because it really is not about the music!
The only thing that I thought was a bit "less" in the KC grouping of 3 drummers, believe or not, was the use of Gavin as the 3rd, and while he is a very strong metronomic drummer that has a very good sense of timing, almost all of the special touches and moments were not done by him in almost all the pieces, and left the rest of the pounding to him. I imagine that RF likes him, because he is very steady and not flaky in some cases, or maybe wanting to do different things on different nights as Bill Bruford apparently did. Bill, btw, was not that great in the early days of YES. He became way better when he sided with KC because all of a sudden he could create moments that added to the whole thing, and this helped make the band special during his time. Edited by moshkito - June 25 2021 at 07:06 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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richardh
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Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 29991 |
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Posted: June 25 2021 at 08:14 |
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^I wonder if anyone ever has ever told Carl Palmer and Neil Peart didn't have chops
 I feel as usual that you are actually arguing with yourself. Moon was an incredibly accurate drummer when he wasn't 'high' or messing about and Bonzo was of course an incredible drummer by anyone's standards. More importantly they had a recognisable style or personality. Virtually no drummers have that any more even assuming they have the chops.
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moshkito
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Posted: June 25 2021 at 12:53 |
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Hi, Carl Palmer talked about his chops ... and you know what he said in the interview I was with? "It's about the lyrics! Not the chops!" ... this was in LA. In my ears, what creates "chops" is how the drummer adjusts to various parts of the music. However, nowadays, we are so used to the metronomic drummers, that can only hit a snare drum and call themselves a musician, when in the earlier days, it was a lot more than that and even Ringo deserves a nod for being very different than most drummers. If you do theater and film, you learn about this very quick ... the camera has to make "use" of a line well delivered, and sometimes not in a wide/long shot so no one can get the effect. Just not "hollywood" style with the well delivered line having to be delivered with the camera in your face as is the case in almost all the soaps! In music, and it is very visible in drumming, the "trickery" is funny ... Bill Bruford shows it in one of the tube bits ... how he plays in two different instruments, and he says ... it's the same thing, just sounds different. That's not exactly "chops" and he knew it, but because it sounded different elsewhere it was thought of as "chops". Carl was very sensitive to the lyrics and it's in almost all the albums, so thinking of him as just a drummer with "chops" is almost like saying that he just put those moments in there ad nauseum, or ad lib. AND THAT IS NOT TRUE. It was, sort of, about taking the lyrics "literally". It was, and is, somewhat like taking the lyrics and making them stand out with the singer ... and this is something that the majority of the drummers we listen to, can not do right, as they are afraid that they will mess up the "timing" and then lose his job because of it! For the best out there, it's not about the chops ... it's about the music. Or pretty soon we will be discussing Moonie's over use of all cymbals and call it "chops" ... it wasn't. It was his way of accentuating something many times ... which the other members of the band appreciated, and helped make their music better and more special than the rest of the mill stuff on the air!
Edited by moshkito - June 25 2021 at 12:55 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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richardh
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Posted: June 28 2021 at 04:30 |
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No no no! Carl Palmer was a power house drummer and very impressive at it. One of his basic 'tricks' (he readily admitted it) was trying to play ahead of the beat and also he was very keen to fill out the sound. I've listened to ELP since I was thirteen and none of what you are saying makes sense. I recently purchased Pictures on vinyl and Palmer is off the scale amazing but tell me what part of that is about lyrics? It's sheer violence. ELP were sophisticated heavy metal at their best but even they were aware of the pretentious theatrical element of what they were doing and unashamedly so. They were good when they were really good as a band that got their rocks off but not a lot more. They tried to be 'arty' at times and Endless Enigma is a decent example but it hardly typifies the band. King Crimson and Bill Bruford much more closely aligns to what you are getting at though.
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moshkito
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Posted: June 28 2021 at 21:52 |
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Hi, I'm listening to Pictures again. It was the first album of theirs that I got and I remember it well, and enjoyed it a lot. I'm not sure I would call it "violence", but his ability to help and strengthen Greg and the whole thing was very nice, and strong all the way through, and it was what his style and ability was all about. The more important thing, is the fact that ELP stood up and DID something that almost no rock band will EVER consider and make it important. AND, to have an audience that appreciated every minute of it. That speaks volumes for the quality of the performance, and I imagine that there would be a little showing off here and there, but all in all, I found the ability to help the lyrics and the musical moments be stronger, something that is far out and very much appreciated. In most cases, specially today, almost all bands, all they do is turn up the loudness past the pain threshold to make sure that you "hear it", and in the end, it's just an empty solo that often does not even belong in the whole of the piece they are doing! But ELP, in that album, showed that there is some serious appreciation to classical music, and its feeling, and that a rock band, can live it as well as anyone else. And they showed it! The only sad side of it, is that today, a band like ELP would probably get laughed off the stage and not appreciated because it is not metal, and the lyrics are weird and not worth remembering! It also does not need to be "loud" and "louder" to make a point, which is a difference in most cases! Reminds me of an actor friend of mine, that played Iago at UCSB. I brought along another friend (a psychic at that!!!) and I went backstage to say hello to him after the show, and the first thing he said about the young man that played Iago ... he's so soft spoken and well mannered! The best, can do a lot, and don't have to spend their time advertising and showing off. They just do it! Carl, is not a "violent" person, and his efforts are not about violence, but about interpretation and ensuring that it helps the music as much as possible. AND, that, my friend, is the one thing that is much more important and valuable for a true musician, than the notes, chords, chops and charts!
Edited by moshkito - June 29 2021 at 10:04 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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cstack3
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Posted: June 29 2021 at 00:07 |
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I don't think Michael Giles gets enough love on PA! He wasn't a Carl Palmer-type smasher, but he sure had a delicate touch on the skins.
Others who are rarely mentioned include Michael Hough from Flash and Steve Upton from Wishbone Ash.
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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
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richardh
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Posted: July 02 2021 at 04:32 |
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Brian Davison (The Nice) was also another underappreciated drummer. Refugee was his best work imo. Sharp and powerful stylistically and managed to keep up with Moraz!
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BaldJean
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Posted: July 02 2021 at 05:03 |
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John Densmore of The Doors was a superb drummer. you can clearly hear he had a jazz background in many songs of The Doors
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Dark Ness wrote:
(and none of the drummers you mention played in prog bands)