When Trump fires Mueller

Easy Money wrote: twseel wrote: Easy Money wrote: ^ Why would "mixing up people from all over the world" eventually cause frustration?      Because of tribal instinct and conflicting traditions, the root of racism and oppression all over the world. I'm not arguing that it can't be overcome, I'm pretty pro-immigration myself, but the idea is not extreme right propaganda.   This is actually alien to me, I work with families and schools that are predominantly African-American and immigrants from all over the world. People get in fights over parking spots, or "why is he a starter on the team and my kid's on the bench", or 'why isn't my child doing better" etc. Or kids get in fights over bullying situations, but in several decades of working like this I have never heard anyone complain about someone else's culture, never ever. Who are these people who have "conflicting traditions", describe them to me, because I have never experienced this myself. I am aware there are xenophobes and racists in this world if that is what you are talking about.

I don't mean to be racist to Americans, but America makes sure to very nicely only grant permission to people who are already partly integrated and completely willing to be full-on American. The only thing in America comparable to tensions w.r.t. immigrants in Europe are the Hispanics in the south, and they are already very similar to America so it doesn't count. I have someone living in my apartment building (which was originally only meant for students) who was placed as a refugee from Eritrea to integrate. He barely speaks Dutch or English and he laughs uncontrollably at homosexuals. That causes conflict.

Today I learned all cultures are compatible, there are no conflicting values or traditions between any of them, and if some individual doesn't fully assimilate to the Western culture he's "just being a jerk".

The blame game is far too common. Partially because I don't believe in free will, I am less likely to blame people (it happens, but it's an emotional rather than logical reaction by me). Our cultures, subcultures, family, friends, nature and nurture shape us. People's tolerance varies, and one's culture and experience generally does play a part in that. As I was molested when growing up, I developed some homophobia, but I soon overcame it (far too many of my favourite people are homosexuals for me to justify it). I don't blame someone for their phobias -- an irrational fear, and as a common corollary, hatred, of something (there are so many phobias, and it's rare that someone would be shunned for many of them). Xenophobes are often not well traveled, often not well educated, and have not been exposed in a meaningful way to different cultures. I know that I have cultural biases (certain cultures, including sub-cultures and customs I prefer to others).

I have not experienced much racism from people, but I have experienced a fair amount of culturalism. It can cause grievances when it's perceived that a culture is displacing another, which is a common grievance where I live. That said, my daughter has been called a chink by some kids at her school (my kids are mixed race, but then so am I even if I am blonde-haired and blue eyed), and I know racism exists but I think it's far more about culturalism than race where I live as ethnic enclaves grow due to huge immigration (particularly from South Asia where I am), and largely from China where I lived last. In various places English is heard less than other languages around BC's lower mainland.

My hope is that the kids in growing up together will grow to appreciate each other despite their differences, but since many immigrants are more comfortable speaking in their native languages but also because of religious differences they do tend to stick to themselves. We have a lot of orthodox religious people in my area -- evangelical Christians, orthodox Sikhs in turbans and orthodox Muslims-- I see lots of wowen in hajibs and niqabs, and I don't think the adults mix much, but also in schools you see the tribalism). Some resent that people don't seem to come here because they like the culture already here, but instead create enclaves of their own culture and don't seem to want to mix with others. An an agnostic atheist, I must admit that I find the rise of obvious religiosity rather off-putting despite enjoying going to Buddhist temples, and church on occasion.

I think that lot of multiculturalism can work great (people coming together from all around the world), and the problems can be worse when you have just two or three distinct cultures living in an area together, and when those cultures seem to displace or overtook the pre-existent, dominant culture, resentments can arise. There are going to be growing pains in places with heavy immigration.

When it comes to homosexuality, one has to remember that in certain religions/denominations/cultures it is considered to be sinful and scornful. We should be wary of intolerance in all cultures and question how tolerant be should be of the intolerant. Not all cultures/ subcultures really are compatible and some different cultures are more compatible with each other than others. With my wife and I, our different cultural backgrounds didn't present a problem because we do share the same basic values, though her being a Born Again Christian did present some problems early on and caused many an argument. Her place of birth first language and race hasn't been an issue (well, a bit, since they do have some different societal expectations than I was used to and going to her friends parties and being the only white, native English speaker did make me feel a little uncomfortable, but that was more because I couldn't understand the language and I felt the need to hide may lack of theism). Sorry for such a rambling post -- I'm very ill right now.

There are many cultures or subcultures and stratification in so-called Western Culture. We have many social groupings based on wealth, profession, background, education, religious and political affiliation, region etc. etc. A poor bible-belt fundamentalist pig-butcher from the US Midwest may not readily identify with a vegan atheist transsexual who is a professor in Paris. Individuals are complex, and of course so are cultures.

Inculcation is important to consider. If someone is a Church goer, they are more like to grow up to be antihomosexual if they are raised in the Westboro Baptist Church than if they are raised with the United Church. One who grows up in a Salafist family is likely to be less tolerant than growing up in a more Humanist Moslem family.

Edited by Logan - March 23 2018 at 13:01

I suppose I do not have deep knowledge or understanding of Eritrean culture, but apparently others in this thread do. ... just kidding

yeah... I'd agree with that.  We are adults here Keishiro.. and adults know that if you swim with the sharks.. you might get bit.. or at least have some ugly truths thrust upon one's fish bowl echo chamber life.

grrrr....

Twseel, i think you get the gold medal for that suggestion!

Easy Money wrote: ^ well the person you are describing who derides homosexuals is just being a jerk, I wouldn't give him a pass by blaming his culture, thats like making an excuse for him when really he is just a pig. If there are problems in mixing cultures, it comes from the fact that some people are xenophobes, and I wouldn't make excuses for them either, a xenophobe is a xenophobe, no excuses allowed. Definition of xenophobe : one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin

rogerthat wrote: Easy Money wrote: ^ well the person you are describing who derides homosexuals is just being a jerk, I wouldn't give him a pass by blaming his culture, thats like making an excuse for him when really he is just a pig. If there are problems in mixing cultures, it comes from the fact that some people are xenophobes, and I wouldn't make excuses for them either, a xenophobe is a xenophobe, no excuses allowed. Definition of xenophobe : one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin But that is exactly what the Left wants to do whether or not you would.  And in fact, if you don't give him a free pass, they will call you a racist/bigot/xenophobe/*insert appropriate term*.  I am sorry but people have to stop being apologetic about the Left and the problems they have created with their PC rhetoric.  What you are saying above is the exact opposite of what multiculturalism prescribes, which in essence boils down to say letting Muslims practice sharia law in UK if they want to (rather than integrating with and accepting moral values upheld in British society).  Goes without saying that practicing sharia law would necessarily allow extreme intolerance of homosexuality. For years, the centrists have muddled through this problem without providing a clear and bold resolution and now the worst elements of the right have hijacked these grievances and are riding to power.  Not quite yet in Europe but it may happen and the lessons of WW-II will have been well and truly forgotten.

I think my words have been given an extension I wouldn't really agree with. I think your post has a lot of generalizations that don't reflect a much more complicated reality. The term 'multiculturalism" sounds vague and simplistic to me, and seems to imply that there is this group of people who all see things the same way. Also, attempts to divide people into simple camps such as 'liberal', 'left' or 'conservative' does not do justice to how much more complicated many of us actually are.

Speaking only for myself and no other group of people of any name, I have never had a problem with another person's culture and have never had a reason to condemn another person's culture. Having said that, I think if a person puts down another person for any reason (such as they are homosexual, they have dark skin, they wear a scarf over their head, they can't speak my native language etc), it reflects poor character on their part.

Although I have never used this word myself, your term 'multiculuralist' might well apply to me, but I doubt I would excuse destructive behavior based on cultural differences. Lumping people together with some sort of ill-defined vague label doesn't really work in the real world.

Edited by Easy Money - March 24 2018 at 05:59