A health care question...

Equality 7-2521 wrote: thellama73 wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: What's incorrect about it? Say we theoretically had a dictator who was incorruptible and continuously reformed his will to that of the majority of those over whom he ruled. This would be indistinguishable from a Democracy.  Your second point is a silly argument. That's like saying you're going to die anyway so why bother to move out of the path of a falling boulder.  I have always maintained that the most effective form of government would be a benevolent dictatorship. The problem is that there is no way to prevent a dictator from ceasing to be benevolent once he is in power. No sir, I don't like it. That's exactly my point. I've actually always argued the same, and I am very depressed at the complete practical impossibility of such a form of government existing. Ok and that's actually my last thing for the night.

He exists, he's called Santa Claus.

Easy Money wrote: thellama73 wrote: I don't think any of us are advocating a system where the rich decide what rights the poor shall have. That's why we a mix between a democracy (in which everyone gets an equal say) and an ironclad set of rules that apply to everyone equally (that no special interest group, no matter how rich, can overrule.) Our point has been about individual liberty, not to advocate some sort of aristocracy system. Both you and Pat said the man with the most money will decide where the roads will go, now all of a sudden there is something that stops him from deciding other things for us as well, just roads. What is supposed to stop the man with the most money from deciding other things for us other than where the roads will go (most likely all roads will lead to his giant box store).

We never said the man with the most money will decide where the roads go. We said that roads will go wherever there are people willing to pay for them. This works in the same way that there are hamburger joints wherever people are willing to pay for hamburgers. I don't hear you complaining that only the rich get to decide where hamburger restaurants go.

Hamburgers, tacos and sewage in the same post? I'm sorry, but I have to go find something to eat right now.

thellama73 wrote: Hamburgers, tacos and sewage in the same post? I'm sorry, but I have to go find something to eat right now.

Taco De Lengua?

Language taco or tongue taco?

The English-speaking world may never know.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Atavachron wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Atavachron wrote: that last part is a bit extreme and more importantly not quite correct: the problem with dictatorships is that they're dictatorships, not that they suffer the same 'flaw of human nature' that other systems have--  in other words the fact that a dictatorship has power issues is an incomplete assessment of the failures of Totalatarianism that excludes little things like what is required to maintain that kind of control. also, if a Libertarian government would fail in this same way, why bother "fighting for it" ?  Wouldn't it just suffer the same fate as what we currently have? What's incorrect about it? Say we theoretically had a dictator who was incorruptible and continuously reformed his will to that of the majority of those over whom he ruled. This would be indistinguishable from a Democracy.     -  well, he would no longer be a dictator by definition if he continuously reformed his will to the majority of those he ruled, that would be more democratic than any Roman and more liberal than any king   .. my god man I think you may have something !!  Your second point is a silly argument. That's like saying you're going to die anyway so why bother to move out of the path of a falling boulder.   - no not really:  you just said, and I happen to agree with you, that all political systems are destined to have fatal power grabs, so how would any system be better than any other, or in this case, in ours? a) But its still a dictatorship because the all policy of the country are completely and uniquely decided by one man. Just because that happens to be in line with the people's will doesn't stop it from being a dictatorship. A Dictator would reform his will of his own volition yes, but are you saying this change is designed to mirror the vox populi so that he can continue to be deemed 'benign' or that he might get incredibly lucky that his policies are coincidently in accord with the majority of his subjects ? The former is a non-sequiter (consensual despotism ?) and the latter is plain vanilla bollocks. e.g. every single piece of legislation passed by parliament in the UK has to be approved by royal assent by the Queen and Liz, for all her faults bless her, would be amused at being called a Dictator. b) Some systems are better protected from the human condition than others. With the right people elected to higher office our originally erected government should work. Even so, having a government which supports the wanton rape of rights is surely worse than one which protects those rights, but over the course of 300 years will degenerate. Jefferson was completely in support of having the government torn down and rebuilt every few generations for exactly this reason. As you posit that the real enemy are the so-called 'allies' themselves, surely a completely untrammelled free-market system is the richest soil from which such malevolent blooms can grow ? Most right-wingers I know share your disdain for the depravity of mankind but usually end up considering it 'living in the real world, stripped of spurious sentimentality' etc Most left-wingers I know do not consider the less palatable aspects of the human condition as inevitable and even have the temerity to suggest that we have a limited ability to implement change in ourselves (Revolution starts in the head blah yakkitty ditto)

Idealism - 1. the practice of forming or living according to ideals

2. the ability or tendency to see things as they should be rather than as they are.

Until one of you utopian idealists can tell me how a libertarian society would set up something as complicated as an infrastructure for sewage disposal, such as we have here in the United Socialist states of America, then I am going to have to come to the conclusion that this idealistic form of government does not work in the real world.

If you can handle the sewage question I have plenty more questions for you after that, don't get sleepy on me tonight, we have lots to discuss.

The Doctor wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote:    In a free-market society, people have no power to usurp the rights of others. Government on the other hand does.       I'll say it again.    What planet have you been living on?  In a free market society, the strong have absolute power to usurp the rights of the weak.  Government stops (or at least slows down to some degree...although not nearly enough) the preying on the weak (read: poor) by the strong (read: wealthy).

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Easy Money wrote: Idealism - 1. the practice of forming or living according to ideals 2. the ability or tendency to see things as they should be rather than as they are. Until one of you utopian idealists can tell me how a libertarian society would set up something as complicated as an infrastructure for sewage disposal, such as we have here in the United Socialist states of America, then I am going to have to come to the conclusion that this idealistic form of government does not work in the real world. If you can handle the sewage question I have plenty more questions for you after that, don't get sleepy on me tonight, we have lots to discuss. Where's the animosity coming from? You act as if I insulted your children.  Before I answer anything could you answer how the government provides for infrastructure? Could you defend your form of government? I understand the advantages you posses by staying on the offensive, but it would be nice to see if you can elaborate on any of your views.

I think we have a good sewage system here, it works. A good working sewage system under our government is a reality. Now, answer my question and don't avoid. How would a Libertarian government establish such a infrastructure?

Edited by Easy Money - April 01 2010 at 18:27