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rushfan4 View Drop Down
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Points: 66588 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rushfan4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 10:47
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Scott, I've been looking at some YT vids and Google street views of Detroit....geezus christ!   I was stunned at the level and scope of the decay....I know all cities have some of this, and I"m not ripping Michigan, but I was just really saddened by this.  I hope there is something that can be done for this city to help bring it back, sincerely.
Every little bit counts, I suppose.  http://www.wzzm13.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=233968  Red Wings/Tigers owner Mike Ilitch has proposed building a huge entertainment center in the city; he has kind of been building his own empire down there already anyways.  They are saying by next February, the city of Detroit will probably go bankrupt and will be taken over by an emergency manager.  Those not living in the city are quite optimistic of what will happen after this occurs.  Those living in the city have a big problem with "the man" taking over.
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The T View Drop Down
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Ignorant question: in a non-right-to-work state, can an individual join a company for which there is a union without being forced to join the union or pay its fees?
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Points: 29630 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 12:48
Today is National Sound Check Day: 121212....
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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AtomicCrimsonRush View Drop Down
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Points: 14258 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AtomicCrimsonRush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 13:46
^LOL


btw, we had that date yesterday in Australia. very interesting to write on forms.
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Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Ignorant question: in a non-right-to-work state, can an individual join a company for which there is a union without being forced to join the union or pay its fees?

I don't believe so. I live in such a state, and I've tried to opt out of the one I'm in at my company because it would mean almost an extra $200 per month for me.

Although I think I'm going to end up going more into the management and (eventually) financial side, so for me, it's just a temporary thing. But to answer your original question, I don't think you can.
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horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down
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Points: 24598 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsewithteeth11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:58
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Today is National Sound Check Day: 121212....

I saw a picture of that on Facebook earlier today. LOL
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 19:05
Originally posted by horsewithteeth11 horsewithteeth11 wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Ignorant question: in a non-right-to-work state, can an individual join a company for which there is a union without being forced to join the union or pay its fees?
I don't believe so. I live in such a state, and I've tried to opt out of the one I'm in at my company because it would mean almost an extra $200 per month for me.Although I think I'm going to end up going more into the management and (eventually) financial side, so for me, it's just a temporary thing. But to answer your original question, I don't think you can.
If that is so, it is ridiculous.
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If you unionize it becomes a countervailing force against a company that wants to drive down your wage and deny you benefits.  That extra $200 might just be a bargain you don't appreciate.  Be glad that others are opting in so you can reap the benefits.


Edited by Slartibartfast - December 12 2012 at 19:12
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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timothy leary View Drop Down
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I apply at plumber a's shop.He is a non union contractor-who by state law is REQUIRED to pay me at least minimum wage.That is the law in this state.You can pass all the journeyman tests you want-and posess all the licenses you want-but in fact-in the laws eye's,they don't care.
As long as you are being paid at least minimum wage-the employer is not breaking ANY law! Period!
So the owner of this shop says he will pay me $18.00 per hr. Pretty good money to most of the audience! Most of you would jump on that much money! He offers me 5 (unpaid) holidays-he wants me to comp time my actual overtime so he won't have to pay time and a half for an emergency call to some slobs place who plugged the toilet up with yeast runoff and Gluten balls! He charges this poor slob right about $200.00 just to come out and plunge this big wad of sh*t down the commode. But no OT for me.And of course-no paid vacation,and NO-medical insurance!

So I decline,knowing there is something better out there.

I go next door to the Union guy's shop.
This guy offers me $29.00 per hour,5(paid) holidays,yearly paid vacations,and medical and dental insurance! BUT-I have to pay a small percentage in dues to have this job.

Unless you are a totallly braindead moron-or brainwashed-the majority would take the better paying job with all the benefits!
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horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down
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Points: 24598 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsewithteeth11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 19:26
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

If you unionize it becomes a countervailing force against a company that wants to drive down your wage and deny you benefits.  That extra $200 might just be a bargain you don't appreciate.  Be glad that others are opting in so you can reap the benefits.

Or perhaps I'd prefer to make an alternate choice because I've determined it benefits me more in the long run.

And as I said previously, it's not my choice to opt into it. If you have to appear in court, are you not allowed to represent yourself instead of having an attorney? That's the way I look at it.

If people want to join a union, they have every right to do so. But the exact same goes for people like me who do not wish to join and would rather represent themselves. I don't see what the big deal with that is.
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 19:27
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


If you unionize it becomes a countervailing force against a company that wants to drive down your wage and deny you benefits.  That extra $200 might just be a bargain you don't appreciate.  Be glad that others are opting in so you can reap the benefits.


You probably can't make decisions on your own so I understand you don't want to have a choice. I would. Having said that I don't think unions are bad. Just as employers, they can be good when they are not abusing their power.
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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Points: 8368 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 19:27
I actually have a bit of a problem with right to work laws when it comes to private enterprise, because I believe it should be the employer's choice if he wants to hire all union members or some union members or no union members.He should be able to set up his contracts any way he likes, and if union members reject them, fine.

In the public sector, however, it seems to me blatantly unfair that you should be forced to join a union and pay dues to work for the government you pay taxes to support. Let people make their own choices.
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horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

I apply at plumber a's shop.He is a non union contractor-who by state law is REQUIRED to pay me at least minimum wage.That is the law in this state.You can pass all the journeyman tests you want-and posess all the licenses you want-but in fact-in the laws eye's,they don't care.
As long as you are being paid at least minimum wage-the employer is not breaking ANY law! Period!
So the owner of this shop says he will pay me $18.00 per hr. Pretty good money to most of the audience! Most of you would jump on that much money! He offers me 5 (unpaid) holidays-he wants me to comp time my actual overtime so he won't have to pay time and a half for an emergency call to some slobs place who plugged the toilet up with yeast runoff and Gluten balls! He charges this poor slob right about $200.00 just to come out and plunge this big wad of sh*t down the commode. But no OT for me.And of course-no paid vacation,and NO-medical insurance!

So I decline,knowing there is something better out there.

I go next door to the Union guy's shop.
This guy offers me $29.00 per hour,5(paid) holidays,yearly paid vacations,and medical and dental insurance! BUT-I have to pay a small percentage in dues to have this job.

Unless you are a totallly braindead moron-or brainwashed-the majority would take the better paying job with all the benefits!

And I understand why you would make such a decision, because it is economically more viable for you. But do people not also have the right to negotiate their own contracts?
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horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down
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Points: 24598 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsewithteeth11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 19:29
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I actually have a bit of a problem with right to work laws when it comes to private enterprise, because I believe it should be the employer's choice if he wants to hire all union members or some union members or no union members.He should be able to set up his contracts any way he likes, and if union members reject them, fine.

In the public sector, however, it seems to me blatantly unfair that you should be forced to join a union and pay dues to work for the government you pay taxes to support. Let people make their own choices.

Thank you, Logan. That's a more eloquent response to what I was trying to say.
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timothy leary View Drop Down
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I never said they did not have that right.
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horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

I never said they did not have that right.

I know you didn't. I wasn't trying to imply that and I'm sorry if I did. But there are certain jobs I would prefer to deal with as a non-union employee because I feel I have more freedom with certain choices and you don't have to deal with the potential political headaches and games that might come from it.

For example, earlier this summer, my store's union rep (I work for a large grocery chain) came in and was talking to us about this year's presidential election. Obviously they were supporting Obama, and with me being a libertarian, that was not a very pleasant conversation to have to go through. I felt bad because while I disagreed with her, she was obviously just trying to do her job. I mentioned to her what my political affiliation was, and said that while I would not be voting for Obama, she could rest assured that I wasn't going to vote for Romney either.

I think I did a good job, because she left it at that and went on to the next person. Although her face might have turned a bit pale... LOL
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Let's be honest here, "right to work" laws are not the least bit concerned with the rights of employees to "negotiate" their own contracts.  It is about eliminating whatever negotiation power employees may have, so that the employees have to take whatever the employer offers them.  One on one, the employee is at the employer's mercy.  But as a united front, employees have equal bargaining power with the employer (or as close as possible to equal).  This is intolerable for conservatives and employers who want all power to vest in employers when it comes to labor relations.
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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The T View Drop Down
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^How can you justify though employees being forced to join a union or pay dues even when they don't belong to it?
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Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Let's be honest here, "right to work" laws are not the least bit concerned with the rights of employees to "negotiate" their own contracts.  It is about eliminating whatever negotiation power employees may have, so that the employees have to take whatever the employer offers them.  One on one, the employee is at the employer's mercy.  But as a united front, employees have equal bargaining power with the employer (or as close as possible to equal).  This is intolerable for conservatives and employers who want all power to vest in employers when it comes to labor relations.


How do these laws prevents employees from forming a united front? There is no prohibition against joining a union if you want to. They are just saying that if you don't want to, you won't be forced to.

You are arguing that people must be coerced for their own good. That is madness.


Edited by thellama73 - December 12 2012 at 20:10
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Yes, let's be honest here:

Why do unions need dues to bargain if their power lies in their collective nature?

Also, http://www.mackinac.org/9714
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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