"Freedom" thread or something

I don't think staying right out of the way in the face of fraud is either libertarian or even liberal, it's just crony capitalist.    For any free market system to work effectively and for people in a democratic society to believe in it, legal rights cannot be compromised.  Not being illegally conned of money is a right I am entitled to, under any Contract Act of any number of national jurisdictions.   That right should be upheld, whether by private legal enforcement agencies (in a hypothetical fully libertarian society) or by the govt.  If people start saying that's anti-markets, then what we are involved in is just a race to the bottom, driving down market conditions to an unregulated, Wild West mess where none of the entities involved can trust each other to make good their word after a point.

Well that's exactly it! I find it funny how today, both left and right seem to have agreed upon ignoring fraud, even trying to justify it!, when as pointed out, even the most libertarian of folk say that is ONE area of government necessary That was the classic line "rules, courts, fight fraud, make the foundation for a true free market" amazing what crony capitalism has done indeed...

Also the reinforcing cycle of exec pay! I sincerely don't care if people are making $20 million a year, but I do think the stock based pay has been negative: lots of reasons, one  being it pressures regulators and lawmakers to de regulate/not enforce regulations. 

Oh yeah, that rant was just because I always see liberal people, though they don't realize it, supporting trickle down-ish policies, and it makes me a bit crazy. Also I had a bit of a debate with someone about the need to lower taxes more, lower corporate taxes, the basic bullet points, so yeah I was angry

That video by Nick Hanauer says it all in my opinion but yeah, I just don't see real life evidence at all supporting trickle down ideas. As stated before I'm all for just eliminating the corporate tax, but I still don't think that'll do much, until demand is boosted. As for wealthy people, I think it's just a silly idea. Like, how will they create jobs? Esp today...most super wealthy are finance, they don't make jobs or products (not good ones at least!) and I don't buy the consumption rationale either. I know Rob here often said how them going out and buying will help us all but again: 1- How will buying Ferraris, Yachts and Mansions trickle down to the Bronx, 2- even if they buy more "regular" or weekly items, there's only soooo much one can buy This isn't a theory or philosophy of mine, just how much can a few thousand people really buy?

That's all fair, but that's kind of why I'm into the idea of more jobs, higher wages. As you say, if supply won't increase it means demand is not there, so why not boost demand? But NOT in "new Keynesian" ways...I think they're not super effective and would be inflationary before successful...I DO believe in NAIRU still, so it's not wise to try to prod from the outside, maybe demand could be boosted long term and sincerely, though I see that only happening through more gov. 

I count ZIRP and printing money as part of the New Keynes ideas btw, which I agree I don't see as very effective. This should be obvious 

We've had 30+ years now of testing and it seems to all point to: incorrect. In my book. 

Taxes on the top have been coming down down down, especially on capital, more deregulation, more slashing of services and I'm sorry but I don't see how things have been better, seem worse. Brownback even had his "experiment" in Kansas which led to: no growth spurt, just a massive deficit that got his states credit downgraded and he's had to cut $50 mill to education to pay for it now. 

This whole euro crisis is in a way an indictment of libertarian econ. This common currency behaves like the gold standard, it removes the authority of a gov to "do much" and restrains what can be spent. Well that seems to be falling over like a house of cards...The strength of Germany seems to be holding it together, which only comes from their export power thanks to forcing exports on the EU The austerity (word may not be used but it's what libertarians basically call for) has caused a disaster. 

Japan slight growth spurt was flipped back to recession after their sales tax hike (aka austerity)   Sorry but I just couldn't believe in it anymore. Reality has proven it incorrect and in fact shown the true results: Allowing those with money and power to just grab more of it, using the power structure to entrench themselves and create social strife. All the non elites of society seem ready to kill each other, some scary forces are slowly creeping up in Europe, the middle classes of some countries like Ireland and Greece are simply moving away...the people, those with money, that libertarianism/right wing want to cater to are simply jumping ship. As always I'll be open minded, I've changed twice, but I'd really like to hear how libertarians are right on economics. If you want to stick to "we need a true free market" mantra, well best of luck...I think you are waiting for something nonexistent. 

I  learnt the other day that Zimbabwe actually accepts a few foreign currencies as local legal tender, including the Indian Rupee!    The reason is their terribly debased local currency is now worthless.  Foretaste of the future?

Thank you Pat. 

Quick note on Utopia: You are 100% correct, there is no utopia. Maybe one day you, MoM, will stop arguing/waiting for one. 

Anyway, Pat beat me to it (didn't think he even poked around here anymore!) but yeah, sorry this just doesn't make much sense man. You seem to mock my "based on reality" statement but...what do you want then? 

A world devoid of looking at results? Or if I misunderstood you need to elaborate. 

I'm not sure where inequality came in, but ANY system is gunna have imbalance and inequality, I am not sure how you can say otherwise. I don't disagree gov creates problem, mainly that they socialize the losses of certain segments, as well as allowing sectors like healthcare and education to run wild, and seems to be allowing a rigid society to form. Not to sound like a conservative here but the US was founded on the idea that wealth can turnover, the only aristocracy was one of merit and we, so far, have prevented an aristocracy from forming: be it trust busting, letting depressions wipe out wealth, moderate collectivism and philanthropy but we can't rely on the last. 

As Hayek pointed out in his famous book, Fascism WAS an offshoot of socialism...adverse to free market capitalism as well as communism. So I know you won't accept this, but it's telling to me much of the world abandoned the laissez faire ideals for a mixed economy, and accepted you need some "buffer" from the "excesses" of capitalism to allow it to thrive. Otherwise, it does break. If you let it break bad enough people will turn to socialism or communism or fascism...I'd prefer a mixed economy, a capitalist one with some degree of collectivism over those alternatives.