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Easy Money 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10680
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 Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:07 |
 thellama73 wrote:
Just like everything else, roads will go where people are willing to pay for them to go.
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What if I decide to pay for a road through your house, who's gonna stop me and my gun collecting vigilante friends back in Oregon (no lie) ... you? ha ha ha.
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:14 |
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I think you're mistaking me for an anarchist. I like having police and I am happy to pay taxes for them. Property rights are essential for a free country.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:14 |
Atavachron wrote:
^ We are the government, the vast majority of government consists of citizens, being paid by and paying into a government that spends most of its budget on the defense and welfare of, you guessed it, citizens.
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That's not really a defense. There are some differences between general defense and welfare. The former is a good which all benefit from equally and is necessary to ensure that the freedoms of citizens are not infringed. The latter steals from one group for the sole benefit of another and erodes the freedom of citizens. Saying we are the government does no good. If we decided to repeal the 13th-15th Amendments I doubt the argument that "You are the government." will be of much comfort to those enslaved. And seriously, the "Defense" budget is more of a "Imperialism and Occupation" budget.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65626
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:17 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
And seriously, the "Defense" budget is more of a "Imperialism and Occupation" budget. |
well now you just sound like a hippie  .. what are politics in this country coming too?! 
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:17 |
Atavachron wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Who is supposed to decide where roads go and lead to in this government less utopia. |
I wouldn't doubt many were indeed building their own roads and
other things back when this was still a big, unwieldy, highly dangerous and dirty place,
and I assume it;'s one of the many reasons we decided to become a real
nation
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When did we become a real nation exactly? Do you realize that a majority of roads and canals in the 19th century were privately financed?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:19 |
Yes I don't support paying for US troops to occupy Korea 5 decades after the war ended, Germany 2 decades after the wall came down, and Iraq one decade after they did nothing. Politics in this country are so screwed.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10680
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:19 |
thellama73 wrote:
I think you're mistaking me for an anarchist. I like having police and I am happy to pay taxes for them. Property rights are essential for a free country.
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OK, I want to build a road over your house, the police are here to protect my right to do that as well.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65626
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:20 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
I wouldn't doubt many were indeed building their own roads and
other things back when this was still a big, unwieldy, highly dangerous and dirty place,
and I assume it;'s one of the many reasons we decided to become a real
nation
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When did we become a real nation exactly? Do you realize that a majority of roads and canals in the 19th century were privately financed? |
I have no idea what this means
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:20 |
Easy Money wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
I think you're mistaking me for an anarchist. I like having police and I am happy to pay taxes for them. Property rights are essential for a free country.
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OK, I want to build a road over your house, the police are here to protect my right to do that as well. |
You must own land before you can build on it. Your "right" to build a road is infringing on his right to not have his property used in a way he disagrees with. We have a nation of negative rights not positive ones.
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - March 31 2010 at 21:21
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:22 |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65626
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:25 |
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^ so in other words if something is privately financed instead of with money from a tax base - in a country founded on individual enterprise -, that isn't real nationhood ? You'll have to be more clear in your assertion.
Edited by Atavachron - March 31 2010 at 21:28
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10680
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:26 |
Pat, I've lived as an anarchist (that means no home you'll) and I was a Libertarian when I was younger and I was raised in a very conservative home, so none of this is new to me, but seriously, disregarding any nonsense that has been said here already, what would be your take on how a road and hiway system would develop.
Edited by Easy Money - March 31 2010 at 21:29
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:27 |
Atavachron wrote:
^ so in other words if something is privately financed instead of with money from a tax base, that isn't real national government ? You'll have to be more clear in your assertion.
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Unless I incorrectly inferred this from your statement, you were saying that roads are a thing which the government must necessarily provide. Further that while private roads may have existed in the past, once the nation reached a certain level of complexity this was no longer possible and we became a "real nation".
I was saying that as recently as the 19th century this was not such a forgone conclusion and most roads were privately provided.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:29 |
Easy Money wrote:
You know I've lived as an anarchist (that means no home you'll) and I was a Libertarian when I was younger and I was raised in a very conservative home, so none of this is new to me, but seriously, disregarding any nonsense that has been said here already, what would be your take on how a road and hiway system would develop. |
The same way any development takes place. The same way railroad tracks are laid. You accumulate capitol and develop.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10680
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:31 |
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RR tracks have been overseen by the government since this country came out of its dark ages.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10680
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:34 |
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I Have another question, if this type of utopian Libertarian government is so advantageous why is not one country in this world operating in a way remotely similar to this.
My guess is that it is philosophical and idealistic in its nature and does not hold up well against reality.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65626
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:35 |
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I do find it ironic that Lincoln, a conservative (or at least Republican) hero, was who insisted this be a country with one central government with a unified legal, monetary and military system and fewer state's rights
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:38 |
Easy Money wrote:
I Have another question, if this type of utopian Libertarian government is so advantageous why is not one country in this world operating in a way remotely similar to this.
My guess is that it is philosophical and idealistic in its nature and does not hold up well against reality. |
A true Libertarian government has never been tried, not because it is unworkable, but because the lust for power is too great. America was awfully close in it's early years, but various congresses and presidents let the authority go to their heads and started behaving like they knew how to run things better than anyone else. Human nature, I'm afraid. That doesn't mean we can't keep fighting for it, though.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:38 |
Atavachron wrote:
I do find it ironic that Lincoln, a conservative (or at least Republican) hero, was who insisted this be a country with one central government with a unified legal, monetary and military system and fewer state's rights
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I find Lincoln to be a deplorable president as well as many Republicans.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: March 31 2010 at 21:39 |
Atavachron wrote:
I do find it ironic that Lincoln, a conservative (or at least Republican) hero, was who insisted this be a country with one central government with a unified legal, monetary and military system and fewer state's rights
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I have never been much of a fan of Lincoln. I like Grover Cleveland best.
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