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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: April 21 2012 at 13:14 |
The T wrote:
PyramidMeetsTheEye wrote:
Any libertarian socialists here?
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The closest here might be Brian aka JJLehto. [/QUOTE] Hmmmmm Possibly I basically believe in a limited government that supplies some net and services. Definitely a limited government in terms of "personal lives" including civil liberties and etc Though I do still like a progressive tax system where...gasp...the wealthy pay more than I would. Is that it? I guess I have to wiki libertarian socialist but seems like an oxymoron?
Edited by JJLehto - April 21 2012 at 13:24
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: April 21 2012 at 07:59 |
PyramidMeetsTheEye wrote:
<div style="text-align: left;"><em style="font-style: normal; font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 16px; text-align: -webkit-auto; font-size: small; ">Any libertarian<span style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 16px; text-align: -webkit-auto; font-size: small; "> socialists here?</span><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 16px; text-align: -webkit-auto; font-size: small; "></span><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 16px; text-align: -webkit-auto; font-size: small; "></span> |
The closest here might be Brian aka JJLehto.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: April 21 2012 at 07:58 |
JJLehto wrote:
Pat is having sex with Toby Driver at this moment...he can't even deny it.
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Living libertarianism, dowsing liberty with Driver's tongue.
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PyramidMeetsTheEye
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 02 2012
Location: Slovenia
Status: Offline
Points: 118
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Posted: April 21 2012 at 03:05 |
Any libertarian socialists here?
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: April 21 2012 at 02:50 |
Exactly my thoughts MoM. Good man.
Indeed, Pat is having sex with Toby Driver at this moment...he can't even deny it.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17607
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Posted: April 20 2012 at 21:55 |
Lucky guy Pat, sounds like a cool gig. Let us know how it is.
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: April 20 2012 at 21:34 |
I'm fairly sure you'll have a chance to see Ron in NJ as he has committed to staying in it till the end. Also, it's about the movement more than the campaign for him so he'll spread the message as far and wide as he can. Awesome night in Pittsburgh, btw. Got a seat 5th row center. A couple pictures to come. Just wish I'd had the money to go to the fundraising lunch earlier in the day.
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 Time always wins.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: April 20 2012 at 17:41 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
He's off to California after this. I'm not sure of his plans after that.
Toby's going to be awesome. He's unveiling a new composition.
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Yeah the schedule on his site was blank, I guess I'll see if they announce closer to our late ass primary. Aww man sick. This is in NYC? Wish I knew earlier I would've scrounged some cash. Enjoy man, should be epic.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: April 20 2012 at 14:25 |
It would be awesome if Driver was the speaker on the political rally and Paul the one unveiling a new composition.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: April 20 2012 at 14:08 |
He's off to California after this. I'm not sure of his plans after that.
Toby's going to be awesome. He's unveiling a new composition.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: April 20 2012 at 13:59 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I'm seeing Toby Driver that night. I think I'll be able to squeeze it in though.
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Lucky f**k. Any idea if Paul is stopping in NJ guys? Havn't seen anything though the primary isn't till June.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: April 20 2012 at 12:24 |
I'm going to try. I have a class to teach in the morning. And I need to catch a train to NYC since I'm seeing Toby Driver that night. I think I'll be able to squeeze it in though.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: April 20 2012 at 12:21 |
Going to see Dr. Paul in Philly tomorrow, Equality? I'll be at the Pittsburgh event tonight.
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 Time always wins.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: April 19 2012 at 19:51 |
The criticism will be: omg people will go around stealing organs and selling them, and I suppose that could happen but more of a sci fi horror scenario.
Besides it's not like you'd be doing in back alleys, if I say "OK Pat I will sell you my liver" and he agrees it can be done at a hospital, things signed..it can be legit. There'd be no middle man.
Honestly, I try to avoid looking at the "moral" arguments but this time there is one. Not sure how "right" it is to have something like organs being used as profit, and Pat brings up a good point...I assumed it'd be 2 people involved but a whole market could develop from it. An intriguing issue...I'm not so sure actually.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: April 19 2012 at 19:38 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I was reading an article the other day, which I incidentally cannot find now, on organ pricing on the black market. Anyway, this just opens the question. How do you guys feel about the organ market? Should it be legal to sell organs?
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Funny, just a couple of days ago I was reading an article from the Cato Institute on just that (well they touched upon it). It's one of those issues you need to "get over" but when you do, I'd support it. It's to the benefit of everyone, especially those on those humongous wait lists. If you are willing to part with an organ, or know you have little time left, why not make some money off it...you could give it to your loved ones, use it to help with medical bills or whatever. Also there's a black market for organs...and like any black market that means a legit market has been suppressed, why not legalize it and put it between the donor and receiver? Instead of shady ass people who are selling organs on the black market.
Edited by JJLehto - April 19 2012 at 19:46
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: April 19 2012 at 13:44 |
It certainly occurs currently on the black market. I think the criticisms merit a thorough retort though.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: April 19 2012 at 12:26 |
That's an exact view of the objections that would be made, you are right. Sadly, at the beginning at least, this new market would probably be out of reach to most people anyway, at least as purchasers. And what you described could happen today too, only under the table. What stops a dying rich man from going to a poor one and telling him "hey, donate me one of your kidneys and I'll make you rich"?
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: April 19 2012 at 12:11 |
Objectors will claim exploitation of the lower class where poor people are inhumanely forced to sell off vital body parts to buy food for their starving children so that an old rich alcoholic can have live a few more years drinking vodka martinis and cheating on his wife.
It would create a culture of consumerism with nothing held sacred. Organs which would have been previously donated will now be sold to the highest bidder. Scarcity once solved by means of need will be settled in a purely rich take all game. The rich will continue to get richer, this time literally off the bodies of the poor.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: April 19 2012 at 11:54 |
It would be better if sais companies existed of course. That would also probably guarantee much better results in every way, including the condition of the organs themselves, and would, as every legalization usually carries with it, somewhat reduce the impact, need, and profitability, of the black market. And this is a case when I don't even see much that religious objectors could argue against.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: April 19 2012 at 11:44 |
It's a rather vibrant market today.
I agree that it certainly makes the industry seem more dubious at face value. However, would it be unreasonable to have a company which safely harvests and stores the organs before selling them to hospitals? Vertical integration would seem to make sense between the two industries, but that's not to say the market would develop like that.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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