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Lewian 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 15151
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 Posted: June 26 2020 at 02:37 |
 npjnpj wrote:
Just a quick word about the confederate flags and statues. I know about the argument concerning American history etc., but I can't for the life of me understand why they're still there. Descriptive history is in books, not in monuments.
Imagine a world where Germany, in the year 2020, would be thinking about taking statues of Hitler, Goering, and Goebbels down, and additionally debating whether to stop flying the Swastika on public buildings.
It beggars belief.
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The Germans lost the war though. Had they won chances are it would be very different indeed. As a German I am very suspicious of the idea that the Germans have somehow become immune of such things be it by bad experience or (even less credible) by intelligence. You can see things in current German discourse that are frightening. At this very moment it's a minority thing but before Covid that minority grew year to year (not sure to what extent Covid has stopped that). And if the Germans submit to such thought as a majority... well let's say one thing that seems pretty German to me is to do thoroughly whatever we do, good or bad... 
Surely being interested in American politics is a good thing also for a German, but there's a lot of stuff going on closer to you that is worthwhile keeping an eye on...
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 03:59 |
Man With Hat wrote:
If only people would actually be in love with the things it symbolizes instead of the actual symbol. |
This is, hands down, the best post that I've ever seen in any PA thread and will now be my new signature. Well done Hat Man.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 07:39 |
Lewian wrote:
npjnpj wrote:
Just a quick word about the confederate flags and statues. I know about the argument concerning American history etc., but I can't for the life of me understand why they're still there. Descriptive history is in books, not in monuments.
Imagine a world where Germany, in the year 2020, would be thinking about taking statues of Hitler, Goering, and Goebbels down, and additionally debating whether to stop flying the Swastika on public buildings.
It beggars belief.
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The Germans lost the war though. Had they won chances are it would be very different indeed. As a German I am very suspicious of the idea that the Germans have somehow become immune of such things be it by bad experience or (even less credible) by intelligence. You can see things in current German discourse that are frightening. At this very moment it's a minority thing but before Covid that minority grew year to year (not sure to what extent Covid has stopped that). And if the Germans submit to such thought as a majority... well let's say one thing that seems pretty German to me is to do thoroughly whatever we do, good or bad...
Surely being interested in American politics is a good thing also for a German, but there's a lot of stuff going on closer to you that is worthwhile keeping an eye on...
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Yes, focusing on someone else's problems makes it convenient to ignore your own. At this point, I don't think there is a country in this world that is immune to fascist tendencies. The appeal of nationalism seems to be growing worldwide.
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 07:43 |
Atavachron wrote:
Saw a new anti-Biden ad last night highlighting his best mumbling, bumbling, dribbling & drowsing moments.
Oh it's good.
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Yeah man, I can't wait to see how Saturday Night Live rips on Joe if he's elected. It will be classic stuff!
Edited by SteveG - June 26 2020 at 07:43
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 08:47 |
rushfan4 wrote:
While I agree with you 100%, the flag and the National Anthem are important for what they symbolize. We are the "Home of the Brave and the Land of the Free" and that is what they symbolize. Our soldiers are trained to give their lives to protect this flag and what it symbolizes. Honestly, I think of it as a really good job of brainwashing but Americans are all about rooting for our teams and rah rah America is our team. It really isn't much different to the horror certain people feel when people burn a bible or a Koran. It is just a book...a set of papers that are bound together with words on them that can be found in every hotel room bedroom in America, but "heaven forbid" someone desecrate this book. Again it is about what it symbolizes...and again it is the result of a history of brainwashing passed down from generation to generation. |
this is what I call "confusing the menu and the dish". you should care less about the symbol but instead what the symbol stands for. there is no use in worshiping a symbol when what it stands for is no longer true.
but sadly worshiping symbols often leads to forgetting what they stand for. that's why dictatorial regimes love symbols: they distract from reality
Edited by BaldJean - June 26 2020 at 08:53
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 08:50 |
Hercules wrote:
But what really baffles me is the American obsession with the flag and the National Anthem.
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hmmm.. trying to decide if that is a first .. now second beer of the day quesstion.. or seeing two monitors kind of reply which is when I do my best writing.. if not the most legible.
so that is indedd a valid question and one worthy of a good answer.. but that answer could turn into an essay so I'll go with still sober reply.  
I suspect you in the course of your substantial education you did take a few history classes and about your empire losing the colonies. Ameica truly is a unique country.. and has a very uinique culture. One my wife still is left befuddled by at times trying to understand and she has lived here for 12 years.
that obsession you call it.. is not as much for the flag itself but what it represents. A country that took in my grandparents.. at one time every goddamn one of our grandparents and gave them a chance of a better life where they were had freedom and a chance, regardless of where they came from, to pursue happiness.
I know the reality of this country has never lived up to the ideal.. but if the ideal itself is not treasured than we would hever have a chance to live up the lofty ideals this country was based upon.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46838
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 09:06 |
well 4 months out now.. .. I think the next month will be very telling... answering a basic question I think many of us have wondered.
Is Trump's narcissism so complete he has zero.. nadda.. NO ability to admit he was wrong.. and change course.
I've read more and more GOP folk are telling him.. you need to stop what you are doing (and been doing for 3.5 years) or you are goiing to get crushed.
series of polls came out yesterday.. A+ rated pollster by the geeks at 538
because this is what the election looks like.. if Trump doesn't change and plays to the fantasy that there are milliopns of forgottten and unknown voters out there. Even if a major slip by Biden will not save him.. he never trailed HRC like this.. and pollsters are not wrong here.. this is well WELL outside the bounds of standard error. As I have long said.. 40%.. get you destroyed in general election.
this is what it would look like if the eldction were held today.. but the problem they are pointing out to Trump is... something has to change.. to change this. Will he listen.. is his self preservation mechanism greater than his self delusion and narcissism. As one prominent GOP politician said off the record.. 'he didn't think he'd win in 2016. He doesn't think he'll lose in 2020"
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 09:10 |
Lewian wrote:
npjnpj wrote:
Just a quick word about the confederate flags and statues. I know about the argument concerning American history etc., but I can't for the life of me understand why they're still there. Descriptive history is in books, not in monuments.
Imagine a world where Germany, in the year 2020, would be thinking about taking statues of Hitler, Goering, and Goebbels down, and additionally debating whether to stop flying the Swastika on public buildings.
It beggars belief.
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The Germans lost the war though. Had they won chances are it would be very different indeed. As a German I am very suspicious of the idea that the Germans have somehow become immune of such things be it by bad experience or (even less credible) by intelligence. You can see things in current German discourse that are frightening. At this very moment it's a minority thing but before Covid that minority grew year to year (not sure to what extent Covid has stopped that). And if the Germans submit to such thought as a majority... well let's say one thing that seems pretty German to me is to do thoroughly whatever we do, good or bad...
Surely being interested in American politics is a good thing also for a German, but there's a lot of stuff going on closer to you that is worthwhile keeping an eye on...
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while I basically agree with you I see the situation in Germany a bit different. the rise of the political party AfD (Alternative für Deutschland), which you probably refer to, is especially pronounced in Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Thuringia, Brandenburg and Mecklenburg-West Pomerania, the five federal states that constituted the former GDR. they were promised "blooming landscapes" by Helmut Kohl, but the truth is that they are on an economic decline, and many people living there are desperate. and desperate people will take to desperate measures.
this economic decline is what needs to be fought. and the people see very little effort by the politicians to change their destitute situation. they are losing faith in them and thus are easy prey for the far right demagogues of the AfD.
if you want to fight the AfD then you have to put money into the economy of these federal states. but that's not what is happening right now. and, like you, I fear what may come of it.
when politicians are asked about why there is not enough economic support for these federal states they will speak of "practical constraints" and "inherent necessities". but the people are tired of hearing about them. they want a scapegoat. and looking for a scapegoat often leads to xenophobia and racism
Edited by BaldJean - June 26 2020 at 09:16
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 09:25 |
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Re Mickey: Another high profile republican has come out against trump, Carly Fiorina. You may recall trump unnecessarily insulting her looks during the debates.
One of the dumbest things trump has done is create enemies where it was not needed to do so.
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 09:29 |
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Trump's endorsed candidates just lost two elections. A libertarian, I forget his name, who was particularly villified by trump, was one winner.
Here again we see trump at odds with true conservative values. As pointed out earlier, trump is not only a failure as a progressive, but also a failure as a conservative. I think he is coming unhinged.
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46838
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 09:48 |
yep... that he is...
there will come a point where the GOP bails on Trump.. knowing they have lost the Presidency.. but still might have a chance to hold on to the Senate. I think that time will come sooner than most might think.. again.. we are in a completely different reality than 2016 here. I think if Trump doesn't do a complete 180 in the next month.. they bail.. to try to give themselves enough time to try to save the Senate.
Personally I don't think Trump will suddenly become what he has never been.. in 3 1/2 years as President.. or his entire pathetic f**kign life hahah. A leader.. emphatic.. thinking of others first.. not himself
What he is doing now is a strong reflection of just how out of touch he is with the new reality.. the new reality of what his Presidency has done to America. Moved it not rightward.. but leftward
Trump is doubling down on the police, statues and protests for a reason. He thnks it will work
The first thought of someone my age is Nixon and law and order,” said an adviser to Biden, who is white and in his late 60s and admitted concern early on that the protests could benefit Trump. The person was granted anonymity in order to speak candidly. “But as long as we don’t have a reversion to looting and lawlessness, as long as it’s peaceful and about the inequality of society and the treatment of African Americans, this has seen a shift in Biden’s direction—and more than we thought it would be.”
Trump is playing this for a reason.. it has a target audience but...
The expected revolt of white suburbanites against the protests hasn’t materialized. Instead, they’ve joined them.
Edited by micky - June 26 2020 at 09:49
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17966
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 09:55 |
I don't think Trump is going to win, so coming "unhinged" is not needed. Back to back wins is a major issue IMO. All Biden can offer is being nice, talking very middle of the road and not really taking a side on any issue, he will be a pleasing POTUS, meaning he will please what ever crowd he needs to for zero confrontations. Borders will be wide open, trade deals that protect the American worker/jobs will be dismantled and we will have an unGodly amount of money spent on restart of Obamacare again....especially since Biden says we have had "120 million Covid deaths..." |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46838
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 09:55 |
and a good lol here.. probably as I was posting earlier.. this came online from The Hill.. a right of center website. Reinforcing exactly what I was saying..
Edited by micky - June 26 2020 at 09:56
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 10:44 |
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Re BLM and the burbs:
The Black Lives Matter events here were heavily attended by suburban moms and their kids. Understanding and compassion were in the air, just what so many are looking for now, not macho posturing and braggadocio.
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 11:04 |
Easy Money wrote:
Re BLM and the burbs:
The Black Lives Matter events here were heavily attended by suburban moms and their kids. Understanding and compassion were in the air, just what so many are looking for now, not macho posturing and braggadocio. |
Very nice. Maybe there is a god. 
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micky
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Points: 46838
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 11:04 |
yep... still amazes me that not just Trump.. but many in the senior ranks of the GOP. In particular Senators have been talking about winning the Suburban vote.. umm... they lost it heavily in 2018. That is why I never bought the fear of 2016 redux... and Trumpian black magic that Trump really ever had a chance in 2020 even before the Virus and Floyd. 40% is 40% is 40% man
They had lost women.. they lost the educated burbs prior to 2020 and were not going to win the White House without them. That is the biggest change in America in last decade or so.. it isn't simply about the economy stupid anymore. .especially when you factor in the 2nd biggest loser of 2020 net to the GOP. Wall Street and the shattering of the myth that a healthy Wall Street means a healthy Main Street
Where 2018 results.. and 2020 polling are more empirical .. images of what you are talking about John are much more concrete. They are visible.. you see them.. I see them.. all do except the ruralites and those who live in the FAUX bubble.
and that fact is still being ignored... it goes back again the much larger problem the Party has ... Trump is just a blip.. or perhaps just an accelerator.. for they were losing the burbs over the last decade..
and they know it.. but are simply unable to offer real ideas to try to win them back. Had all those years to craft a plan for health care.. yet.. when the time came.. they have nothing. Only hate for the ACA.. repeal repeal.. but nothing to offer .. much less a plan that might be 'better'
Edited by micky - June 26 2020 at 11:06
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 11:19 |
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ACA has been very good for me. Healthcare for all is what I call smart capitalism. Healthy people equals a healthy economy, plus, its just the right thing to do.
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46838
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 11:53 |
stepping ouf of the politics of it to the personal.
The less said of what I think with my experiences regarding our health care system and private insurance the better.
It's enough I to say I keep insurance.. for Raff's sake...but never again will use it myself. It is money thrown away if you ain't dying.. and if you are.. f**k it. Many of us suspect the treatments they offer kill you ..often quicker than what ails you.
IMO it has gone far beyond xyCare Act.. to needing an eventual staged complete tear down and do over. I'm not alone in that thinking.. and curious to see how much the virus's exposure of the failure of our nations' 'for profit' system will play in the future to come where Democrats hold all 3 keys of power and may for some years to come. |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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rushfan4
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Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 13:04 |
I've been fortunate to have health insurance from my employers my entire adult life and I have not had to deal with ACA. For most of my adult life, it was just something that I had but was fortunate enough to not have to use it. In all honesty, as micky said, it seemed like a waste of money.
Unfortunately, in the past year I have gotten a lifetime's worth of use out of it and am very fortunate to have it. On a personal note, I now have a very major preexisting condition, so could be seriously effected if I were to lose my job and that protection went away. It is definitely a broken system, but who knows what the best solution is. I'm kind of a "fan" of the hybrid system where employers still continue to provide health insurance for their employees, and where that is not available there is some sort of safety net to help others access affordable health insurance. I'm not as big of a fan of the health care for all but if someone far smarter than me can come along with a solution that doesn't involve me paying more in taxes than I am currently paying in health care and deductibles than sign me up.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: June 26 2020 at 13:40 |
rushfan4 wrote:
I've been fortunate to have health insurance from my employers my entire adult life and I have not had to deal with ACA. For most of my adult life, it was just something that I had but was fortunate enough to not have to use it. In all honesty, as micky said, it seemed like a waste of money.
Unfortunately, in the past year I have gotten a lifetime's worth of use out of it and am very fortunate to have it. On a personal note, I now have a very major preexisting condition, so could be seriously effected if I were to lose my job and that protection went away. It is definitely a broken system, but who knows what the best solution is. I'm kind of a "fan" of the hybrid system where employers still continue to provide health insurance for their employees, and where that is not available there is some sort of safety net to help others access affordable health insurance. I'm not as big of a fan of the health care for all but if someone far smarter than me can come along with a solution that doesn't involve me paying more in taxes than I am currently paying in health care and deductibles than sign me up. |
I find it amazing how often native speakers confuse "effected" and "affected":
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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The American Politics Thread
