SR V: To boldly go where no room has gone before

It's going to be a good year for prog, eh, Harry?

James wrote: I know Rob isn't about but I hope he catches this post by me.  Please do not get upset or start a big argument but I am after your thoughts on something. You also have to bear in mind I am asking the following question as a non-religious person. Basically, what I want to know is this: What is your personal perception of what Heaven, Purgatory/Limbo and Hell is like? I mean, is Heaven fluffy clouds, a stairway, angels, lots of white-robed people &c. or is it something completely different? I am actually genuinely curious and will not say there is no God or whatever. Edit: anyone can offer their thoughts on this, it is not solely aimed at Robert. Thank you.

And if that's me...

I am a professing Christian who rejects the traditional understanding of heaven and hell (I am not Catholic, so I certainly don't believe in purgatory or limbo).  Many of those interpretations just don't make sense in light of the cultural context of the Bible or in light of what the Bible says.

I do not believe that man has an immortal soul, and I don't believe the Bible teaches it.

Solomon wrote:

"and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
       and the spirit returns to God who gave it." (Eccl. 12:7, referring to man, made of the dust of the earth by God and brought to life by God's breath, will return to the dust).

Solomon also wrote:

" For the living know that they will die,
       but the dead know nothing" (Eccl. 9:5)

David said:

"When you hide your face,
       they are terrified;
       when you take away their breath,
       they die and return to the dust." (Psalm 104:29, speaking to God).

Also:

"No one remembers you when he is dead.
       Who praises you from the grave" (Psalm 6:5)

And:

"It is not the dead who praise the LORD,
       those who go down to silence" (Psalm 115:17)

Once more:

"His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
         In that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalm 146:4- note that the Hebrew word for "spirit" is the exact same word for "breath;" it could be translated either way)

In the New Testament, Peter said that David is buried in his sepulcher and did not ascend into heaven (see Acts chapter 2).

Jesus himself had this to say:

"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." (John 3:13)

I think that is all fairly clear.  When we die, we do not go to heaven.

So what happens?

Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:53 that the mortal must put on the immortal (in other words, we are not inherently immortal- people who share in the gift and sacrifice of Christ enjoy eternal life in him).

Daniel prophesied:

"Many of them that SLEEP in the dust of the earth, shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2)

In other words, all who die "sleep."  At the appointed time, God will raise the dead to be judged. Those who are His will be given a new, glorified body (I cannot fathom what this means- we are not told), and those who refused to accept Christ as lord and savior will be shamed and destroyed.  Note that the worst "punishment" in the ancient world was not physical pain (like it is for us in the West), but shame.  Being put to shame was an eternal punishment because your name would only exist in infamy.

Christ will establish a new kingdom, and those who are His will inhabit it.  We know little about this place, but we know there will be no death, no sorrow, no sin, and no night.  The book of Revelation (see chapters 21 and 22) provides some details about the physical structure of the city.

Phew.  Hope this helps.

Epignosis wrote: James wrote: I know Rob isn't about but I hope he catches this post by me.  Please do not get upset or start a big argument but I am after your thoughts on something. You also have to bear in mind I am asking the following question as a non-religious person. Basically, what I want to know is this: What is your personal perception of what Heaven, Purgatory/Limbo and Hell is like? I mean, is Heaven fluffy clouds, a stairway, angels, lots of white-robed people &c. or is it something completely different? I am actually genuinely curious and will not say there is no God or whatever. Edit: anyone can offer their thoughts on this, it is not solely aimed at Robert. Thank you. And if that's me... I am a professing Christian who rejects the traditional understanding of heaven and hell (I am not Catholic, so I certainly don't believe in purgatory or limbo).  Many of those interpretations just don't make sense in light of the cultural context of the Bible or in light of what the Bible says. I do not believe that man has an immortal soul, and I don't believe the Bible teaches it. Solomon wrote: "and the dust returns to the ground it came from,        and the spirit returns to God who gave it." (Eccl. 12:7, referring to man, made of the dust of the earth by God and brought to life by God's breath, will return to the dust). Solomon also wrote: " For the living know that they will die,        but the dead know nothing" (Eccl. 9:5) David said: "When you hide your face,        they are terrified;        when you take away their breath,        they die and return to the dust." (Psalm 104:29, speaking to God). Also: "No one remembers you when he is dead.        Who praises you from the grave" (Psalm 6:5) And: "It is not the dead who praise the LORD,        those who go down to silence" (Psalm 115:17) Once more: "His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;          In that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalm 146:4- note that the Hebrew word for "spirit" is the exact same word for "breath;" it could be translated either way) In the New Testament, Peter said that David is buried in his sepulcher and did not ascend into heaven (see Acts chapter 2). Jesus himself had this to say: "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." (John 3:13) I think that is all fairly clear.  When we die, we do not go to heaven. So what happens? Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:53 that the mortal must put on the immortal (in other words, we are not inherently immortal- people who share in the gift and sacrifice of Christ enjoy eternal life in him). Daniel prophesied: "Many of them that SLEEP in the dust of the earth, shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2) In other words, all who die "sleep."  At the appointed time, God will raise the dead to be judged. Those who are His will be given a new, glorified body (I cannot fathom what this means- we are not told), and those who refused to accept Christ as lord and savior will be shamed and destroyed.  Note that the worst "punishment" in the ancient world was not physical pain (like it is for us in the West), but shame.  Being put to shame was an eternal punishment because your name would only exist in infamy. Christ will establish a new kingdom, and those who are His will inhabit it.  We know little about this place, but we know there will be no death, no sorrow, no sin, and no night.  The book of Revelation (see chapters 21 and 22) provides some details about the physical structure of the city. Phew.  Hope this helps.

I totally agree with what Robert said..

micky wrote: I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. ~ M. Ghandi

Gandhi was guilty of a sweeping generalization?

The saddest Christians are the ones who think their being Christians makes them morally better than anybody else.  Next to Christ's holiness, we are all morally bankrupt (Isaih 64:6- all our best deeds are but filthy rags).

Being a Christian gives someone ZERO moral superiority, and believers who truly comprehend the sad state they were in before Christ entered their lives will understand that without God's grace, we are all hopeless.

I had a world religions professor put it this way:

"Being a Christian is just like a being a homeless man who tells another homeless man where to find something eat."

micky wrote: the problem  is Robert you are an exception.. a minority... and where Ghandi's generalization is on the mark.... is that many Christians do feel morally superior.  Call it the nature ..side-effect of being evangelical... who knows.  All I know is that it was Christians.. not Christ.. that turned me off.   Hypocrisy is one thing I never have dealt well with.

Got to disagree a bit there...I don't think I'm a minority, I think its just that the hateful Christians are the ones with the biggest mouths (and who garner the most publicity).  How much media attention do the meek get?  No...people want to see the firebrands, the ones stirring sh*t up.

In the church I attend, for instance, I can't think of one hateful Christian.  No doubt they exist (and for some of them I'd seriously question their salvation in the first place), but I don't think they make up the majority of Christians.  We're a much quieter bunch.

micky wrote: All I know is that it was Christians.. not Christ.. that turned me off.

Which I think is rather good.


Edited by JayDee - May 25 2009 at 08:23

micky wrote: Epignosis wrote: micky wrote: the problem  is Robert you are an exception.. a minority... and where Ghandi's generalization is on the mark.... is that many Christians do feel morally superior.  Call it the nature ..side-effect of being evangelical... who knows.  All I know is that it was Christians.. not Christ.. that turned me off.   Hypocrisy is one thing I never have dealt well with. Got to disagree a bit there...I don't think I'm a minority, I think its just that the hateful Christians are the ones with the biggest mouths (and who garner the most publicity).  How much media attention do the meek get?  No...people want to see the firebrands, the ones stirring sh*t up. In the church I attend, for instance, I can't think of one hateful Christian.  No doubt they exist (and for some of them I'd seriously question their salvation in the first place), but I don't think they make up the majority of Christians.  We're a much quieter bunch. hateful is not exactly what I was getting at...  nor were you I thought.  Hate is one thing....  a feeling of moral superiority is another.  Is that not what being 'evangelical'.  It is not enough to merely practice what you believe... it is their mission to convert others who are ...errr... misguided.

Problem is, evangelism is necessary.

Not because we feel 'morally superior' or because we think we have a right to impose our views on others, but because that comes as part of the message, and because it's a way of helping people. I think that Robert's world religions professor basically nailed the ethic of that (as below... fitting it in the middle messes up my font)... yeah, people don't always get things right, and yeah, Christians don't always live up to what they preach, but I wouldn't say, from personal experience, that most of the Christians I know have a real sense of moral superiority to others.

"Being a Christian is just like a being a homeless man who tells another homeless man where to find something eat."

micky wrote: All I know is that it was Christians.. not Christ.. that turned me off.

Here the same, and this is coming from someone who's going to a Catholic school.

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PURCHASE ADDICT!

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