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Aquiring the Taste View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 15:57
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

As usual Dean makes an excellent technical arguement for digital to analog specs. Tech wise, specification wise, numbers wise...I agree that digital does win. But there also in lies some leeway.....Not all CDP are very good nor do they all sound very good. So here in lies a Y in the road....What are we talking about? The sound that comes from your laptop computer with a US$40 disc drive and $30 internal DAC?? Or a $500 CDP with a high end Wolfson DAC or even better a US$1200 CDP with dual DACs and separate power supply that is top loading? The options can be endless to make a CD sound gorgeous....but you may need a lot of cash. The same CD played on these two different players will give you two very distinctly different sounds....one that will sound like pure A$$ and the other will give you some digital goodness.


I have an excellent NAD C545BEE CDP with one of the better internal DACs, separate power regulators for digital and analog sections...It pulls music off the disc as good as any $1000 players I have heard.

I also have an external DAC which is tube based audio when I want my CDs to sound more "analoguee".

 

Now I have many CDs, and I also have a lot of vinyl, duplicates too. In almost all cases I prefer to listen to vinyl as I want that sound. Nothing beats vinyl/analog for a huge soundstage, if you prefer your music to wrap you up like a warm blanket in winter...then vinyl will do that. Some CDs can do that but at the expense of sounding too digital and causing ear fatigue.....which does exist. As Hercules said, digital is wayyyy too 2-dimensional for me, too much channel separation is not a good thing in music.

 

I too run a higher end vinyl setup a Music Hall mmf-7.1, Pro-Ject 9 carbon fiber arm with a Nagaoka MP-110 cartridge run thru a Phonomena II phonostage into my NAD C356BEE int amp.....I like the British sound so I pump all my music using Epos Epic 2 speakers.

 

My DSOtM anniversary copy blows away my 2 CD copies I have.......Sound wise everyone prefers the vinyl. All my Porcupine Tree vinyl is no comparison to the CD issues.

 

I agree there is the subjective arguement that Dean makes, I do prefer vinyl/analog sound to digital any day of the year..My intelligent mind tells me this cannot be, but my ears in this case is all that matters. I cannot argue the specs..its hard because in this audiophile hobby you are always looking for that better sound and you have to look at specs. But it is easy for me to say..vinyl sounds better. So in this case the tech numbers do not tell the whole story.

 

Now to the topic of old prog bands like Genesis....yea those first few records are horrid on vinyl. They sound like there is a blanket over my speakers. The recent remixes are much better and those are what I play, the original releases are put away for safe keeping since they are originals.

I do prefer the original releases of some though, like KC and ELP.....I use them as reference music where if I start to hear more music coming off the vinyl then I know I am mating certain gear very well.

Most older music released on CD does not sound good at all, if you get some of the recent remixed/remasterd CD issues they are better. But they can have that computer/techy sound to them and that is a turnoff....In some cases I can agree that listening to old prog on vinyl you do hear more, but that is rare, and you need the system that can do it.

With the revival of vinyl in the past 5-10yrs, I am hoping so much stuff gets redone...but cost is always the brickwall.

 

I don't listen to classical music or "elevator music"...so the occasional pop or click goes away once the music starts, but I am meticulous about my vinyl care so I don't experience much of that, its no concern of mine. I have vinyl that is 30+ yrs old and has no surface noise.

 

I appreciate what Dean says, being an electrical engineer you have to respect his knowledge of what the inside of these boxes do.

But when I sit down and listen to my system or go and audition something new I have interest in, usually those thoughts go away and my ears make my decision.

 

 

It should have ended with this post from page 1. It is based on actual experience, is intlligently written & factually accurate.
The last 24 pages are more about agenda, relationships & studied ignorance.
As F.Z. used to say " the human brain is like a parachute, both work better when they are open ".

Edited by Aquiring the Taste - November 30 2012 at 16:12
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 16:24
Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:

 
The last 24 pages are more about agenda, relationships & studied ignorance.
As F.Z. used to say " the human brain is like a parachute, both work better when they are open ".
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I need not attack the man, only his argument ...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2012 at 09:54
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:



Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

^ no Dean, I mean yes yes yes, go back and read your posts in this thread and tell me  you are not the perfect yes man to Dean's posts.....hilarious

I happen to agree with him. Not always.  But here yes. One difference is that Dean will not say which medium he prefers. I on the other hand definitely do not like vinyl and  do like CD and I think it is  a superior format.



He's an equivocator. Reminds of a politician, but a good honorable one at that. .
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2012 at 10:08
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:



Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

^ no Dean, I mean yes yes yes, go back and read your posts in this thread and tell me  you are not the perfect yes man to Dean's posts.....hilarious

I happen to agree with him. Not always.  But here yes. One difference is that Dean will not say which medium he prefers. I on the other hand definitely do not like vinyl and  do like CD and I think it is  a superior format.



He's an equivocator. Reminds of a politician, but a good honorable one at that. .
Who is? Confused
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
this thread's got stupidly confusing of late.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 11:24
This thread preys on my mind and I pick at it like an old scab that will never heal. I am fully aware of the futility of this yet still I persist in pursuing it because reason and facts have been met head-on by beliefs and emotion. For me ad hominem replies are inexcusable and on one occasion here I have resulted to an emotional response to such an accusation that I truly regret, because regardless of the provocation that can never be justified. I am also aware that this post is also prompted by my emotion reaction to several of the recent posts that I feel (rightly or wrongly) are directed at me personally and not at the content of replies I am giving. That's not to say I should be immune to such comments, for I am evidently not (I have emotions and feelings just like everyone else and I can be hurt by such accusations just like everyone else), it just means I should refrain from replying in kind. Water off a duck's back or just turn the other cheek perhaps on an emotional level, but be permitted the right to reply (and defend) through reason and rationality without recourse to emotional outburst.
 
The views I hold and the positions I take are not based upon a belief system, though any statement made carries a degree of implied bias that is the inevitable consequence of answering or addressing someone else's opinion. If I state that someone's view is not accurate it does not follow that I accept that the opposite view is (by inference) not inaccurate. If a subjective statement contains an objective inaccuracy then I am at liberty to address that inaccuracy from an objective viewpoint without making a judgement on the accuracy of any counter statement from an objective or subjective viewpoint. Correcting the objective inaccuracy does not change the subjective opinion, if someone prefers something and makes an inaccurate claim as a result of that then showing the claim is inaccurate does not alter their preference or pronounce that they are wrong, it just means their resulting deduction was not valid in that instance. This also holds true for all analogies made in support of any opinion - showing that the analogy is invalid does not defeat the original opinion, it merely shows the analogy wasn't a particularly good one.
 
Science, technology and engineering are not belief systems, they are not immutable truth, they are subject to change and modification as new evidence is collated and that is the basis of all science. General relativity was not a paradigm shift in science, it did not replace Newtonian physics but was a refinement on something that worked (as opposed to something that didn't work, such as Aristotle's ideas on gravity), the sea change occurred in the change to Newtonian gravity from Aristotelian gravity 200 years earlier. Showing that science can refine and improve on one idea does not show that science's apparent inability to support a completely unrelated idea is a failing of science. When all or any of the known evidence fails to support the hypothesis then the hypothesis is wrong, not the evidence - if an amplifier shows a varying frequency response then it shows that the response is not linear and it is not perfect, therefore the amplifier is neither linear nor is it perfect. If that amplifier is used in a system then that system cannot be described as a perfect system, regardless of how much better that sounds, or whether that sound is preferred over a system using a more linear amplifier. Not saying which I prefer is not a prevarication on my part, I merely make the observation that a non-linear response cannot be called perfect or superior. My determination not to make a subjective statement over a system I have never heard is not an unreasonable stance to take because age and experience has taught me that I cannot make subjective claims based upon objective evidence. I, of course, can make assumptions and speculate on what a system could sound like, and from that I could predict whether I would like it or not, but I cannot make an unequivocal statement about it or support or deny anyone else's opinion without first hearing it.
 
I do not use technical specifications to show how good a system is, I use technical specifications to show that my explanation of why a system subjectively sounds like a good system is supported empirically. If a system with 0.1% distortion sounds better to the ear than one with 0.01% distortion then the specification shows that the preferred system is more non-linear and that is all. The science and understanding of what that distortion is provides the explanation of why that would sound better. My assertion in that instance would be that the nature of the distortion is a contributory factor in the sound characteristic of the system, just because the values taken without understanding what they mean appears not to support that subjective assessment (that it sounds good, great, superior) does not discredit the system or the science. But if someone makes the claim that the system is more linear because it sounds better then all I can do is point to the specification and say that it is not [more linear]. 
 
 
 
I will confess that my hearing is not what it was when I was 19, I am now 55 and have spent a lifetime not looking after my ears: I listen to loud music continuously; I have worn ear buds plumbed into Walkmans and iPlod for long periods; I have spent hours recording and mixing music while wearing enclosed headphones; and I have attended more live rock and metal gigs than I care to count (including being in the mosh-pits at Slayer, Metallica and Motorhead concerts) - I have also worked in industrial environments before the days of compulsory ear-defenders and enforced health and safety regulations. I have had my hearing tested and like most people my age, I know I cannot hear anything over 16KHz. Yet I can hear the distortion present when one byte of a waveform sampled at 192KHz is corrupted - and that is counter intuitive because I know that corruption equates to an impulse transition of 5.2uS, or a Nyquist frequency of 96KHz, so how is this possible? Does this not disprove everything I've said about what we can and cannot hear in whatever system you prefer? Does this not show to be a lie everything I have said about the frequency response of one format over another, of amplifiers and speaker systems and moreover, what we has humans can possibly hear? How is it that I can hear this impulse "click" when my hearing has been scientifically measured to be incapable of hearing anything above 16KHz????
 
Of course science comes to the rescue and provides the answer that requires an understanding of mathematics to fully appreciate: that impulse function in the time domain does not equate to an impulse in the frequency domain. What that means is that the click is not a single frequency or band of frequencies that are above what we can hear, it contains frequencies that we can hear (even with aged hearing) which is why we can hear it. (For anyone who does understand the mathematics) the proof of that is relatively trivial - if we apply Laplace transforms that convolves the time domain impulse into a frequency domain response we can show that the impulse function in the time domain is the unity function in the frequency domain, this means that the ideal impulse contains every known frequency from 0Hz to infinity, and obviously some of those fall into the 20Hz to 20KHz bandwidth of our audio systems. Now we cannot create an ideal impulse function in the real world (an ideal impulse has zero width), what we present to the amplifier is a pulse of finite width (in this case 5.2uS) and the Laplace transform of a pulse is represented by the sinc function in the frequency domain [this is the sin(x)/(x) function mentioned several pages back] which means that the pulse contains a lot more low frequencies (that we can hear) than high frequencies (that we cannot). What that looks like (on a spectrum analyser or after Fourier analysis) is this:
So a fast pulse that appears to be much faster than we can possibly hear, or what can possibly pass through any audio system, is in reality a simultaneous spread of frequencies that we can hear that extends way beyond the bandwidth of the audio system, our ears and (perhaps surprisingly) the 192KHz (1/T) of the sampling frequency. Therefore the science fully supports what our ears tell us is true. (This also explains why we can hear clicks and scratches on a vinyl surface btw).
 
So have I now shot myself in the foot regarding Sean Beavan's comment that the human ear can detect differences as small as 6us? (or 6ms or 6ns or whatever actual number he was thinking of was)? [is this an example of me attacking those with greater knowledge?] ... No, I have not. The key phrase in the statement is "detect differences" and nothing I have said here confirms or denies that, a 5.2us click is not a time difference, it is a single event.
 
It could be argued that if the science supports what our ears tells us is true in this example then it should support everything our ears tell us is true in every example. That would be a bold claim that needs to be supported by fact and obviously that requires every unsupported claim to be looked at from a scientific standpoint, which is all I have ever attempted to do here. A claim made without the support of fact is irrelevant and meaningless. I am not here to support a belief system that proves one thing or another, I am trying to determine whether claims made have a valid and supportable explanation within known science. When someone claims that thermionic valves (tubes) sound warmer I have demonstrated the science behind that claim and shown that the subjective assessment can be married to an objective analysis - the science of this has been known since the middle of the 20th century, the engineers who designed and built those valve amplifiers back then knew that just as modern engineers know this today.
 
 
 


Edited by Dean - December 02 2012 at 11:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 12:22
Science, technology and engineering are not belief systems

NO, science is a belief system... because once new evidence proves the old science to be inaccurate, it also proves the old science was in fact nothing more than a belief system.  This is why your arguments are nothing more than a belief system based upon a knowledge base of a specific point in time, and not even necessarily an advancement over prior scientific assumptions of the past. 

I do not use technical specifications to show how good a system is, I use technical specifications to show that my explanation of why a system subjectively sounds like a good system is supported empirically.

No, this is not true, you have failed to explain to all of us who prefer vinyl why it sounds better scientifically using supportive empirical data.
You keep repeating like a skipping record that it is just subjective and that there is nothing wrong with subjective preference.  But it is not subjective preference, it is fact.  So when you are able to support this fact with data, then you can relax and realize you have done a job "well done".  Until then, keep searching.

But if someone makes the claim that the system is more linear because it sounds better then all I can do is point to the specification and say that it does not.

This is contrary to what you should be doing.  You should be pointing scientifically as to why this is true.  If this is "all you can do" then you are really limiting your possibilities as a human and the human experience.

I am now 55 and have spent a lifetime not looking after my ears: I listen to loud music continuously; I have worn ear buds plumbed into Walkmans and iPlod for long periods; I have spent hours recording and mixing music while wearing enclosed headphones; and I have attended more live rock and metal gigs than I care to count

This might explain a lot of why you don't hear the beauty of vinyl.  Both the damage done to your hearing, and not having a good analog system, which you might not be able to hear even if you had one.

How is it that I can hear this impulse "click" when my hearing has been scientifically measured to be incapable of hearing anything above 16KHz????

You are smarter than this aren't you?  You can feel it in your body.  If I came up behind you and grabbed and shook your shoulders back and forth you would feel that.. but would not hear the frequency of such a low vibration relative to how we listen to music.

 
So have I now shot myself in the foot regarding Sean Beavan's comment that the human ear can detect differences as small as 6us? (or 6ms or 6ns or whatever actual number he was thinking of was)? [is this an example of me attacking those with greater knowledge?] ... No, I have not

Yes you have.  As long as you continue to believe that scientific knowledge trumps the human experience, you will continue to attack others who actually have greater knowledge in the wider human experience.  How smart would you be if I dropped you off in the middle of the jungle in Conga?  You would be hard pressed to survive while other "primitive" people would be eating and enjoying shelter while you struggle in your ignorance.

It could be argued that if the science supports what our ears tells us is true in this example then it should support everything our ears tell us is true in every example. That would be a bold claim that needs to be supported by fact and obviously that requires every unsupported claim to be looked at from a scientific standpoint, which is all I have ever attempted to do here.

This is all you ever try to do, and why your arguments fail because of the very limited scope of your reference.  Science is only an attempt to explain things.. sometimes successfully for a time, and sometimes completely failing to explain things.  Very limited if you only use science.

A claim made without the support of fact is irrelevant and meaningless.


This is probably the most ignorant statement I have ever heard you make.  I feel sorry for you if your life's experience is based upon this statement.  I love my wife, and do not view it as irrelevant or meaningless because science cannot properly explain why I do the things I do for her, and her for me.  But I really don't think you are that shallow of a person... just think about it a bit.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 13:08
Anyone that claims that science is a belief system has totally failed to win me over in any argument. 

Edited by Snow Dog - December 02 2012 at 13:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 19:18

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Science, technology and engineering are not belief systems

NO, science is a belief system... because once new evidence proves the old science to be inaccurate, it also proves the old science was in fact nothing more than a belief system.  This is why your arguments are nothing more than a belief system based upon a knowledge base of a specific point in time, and not even necessarily an advancement over prior scientific assumptions of the past. 

Even if that opinion of science were true that still would not make it a belief system. Science, technology and engineering invented, designed and built the equipment you praise so much. The science that describes how a voltage on the grid of a thermionic valve controls the flow of electrons from cathode to anode also describes the linearity of that process and is used to calculate the optimum working conditions to produce the best performance from that device, which is then supported by empirical measurements taken from the final system built using that design. If the empirical measurements did not support the design calculations then we would first look at the empirical data for possible sources of error, then to the design calculations for computational errors, then finally to the scientific formula. If it transpired that an adjustment to the formula was needed then that change would be made.
 
No matter how you jiggle it, that does not fit the description of a belief system, even if in some future time we produce a more accurate model or explanation of that process. That the system can and will be modified to fit more accurate data is precisely why it is not a belief system.
 
This is what Newton was referring to in his "standing on the shoulders of giants" quotation - and that is the method by which Einstein elaborated on the work of Newton.
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


I do not use technical specifications to show how good a system is, I use technical specifications to show that my explanation of why a system subjectively sounds like a good system is supported empirically.

No, this is not true, you have failed to explain to all of us who prefer vinyl why it sounds better scientifically using supportive empirical data.
You keep repeating like a skipping record that it is just subjective and that there is nothing wrong with subjective preference.  But it is not subjective preference, it is fact.  So when you are able to support this fact with data, then you can relax and realize you have done a job "well done".  Until then, keep searching.

I have explained why vinyl sounds better to you, the empirical data (ie all that what can be measured) has been measured and analysed and explained scientifically. If you say that vinyl sounds warmer and the empirical evidence supports that observation then accept it for what it is even if the analysis does not demonstrate that vinyl is a perfect system that adds nothing to the original sound.
 
You keep stating that it is not subjective preference and that it is fact  - BUT if this is fact then it is you who needs to provide the evidence. The onus on providing supportive data lies with the person making the statement. You seem to be under the impression that saying X is better than Y is not a subjective opinion or preference but you are not providing any evidence to support that except subjective opinion (which seems circular to me).
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:



But if someone makes the claim that the system is more linear because it sounds better then all I can do is point to the specification and say that it does not.

This is contrary to what you should be doing.  You should be pointing scientifically as to why this is true.  If this is "all you can do" then you are really limiting your possibilities as a human and the human experience.
Eh? You have quoted an earlier version of my post where I hadn't corrected my garbled grammar, what I said (and intended to say) was:
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

But if someone makes the claim that the system is more linear because it sounds better then all I can do is point to the specification and say that it is not [more linear].  
Now (in light of that correction, made before you posted your response) if you honestly believe that system A with 0.1% distortion is more linear than system B with 0.01% because system A sounds better to you than system B then it is not the science (or my explanation thereof) that is failing, but your understanding of distortion and linearity. This is not limiting my possibilities as a human at all. Thankfully.
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:



I am now 55 and have spent a lifetime not looking after my ears: I listen to loud music continuously; I have worn ear buds plumbed into Walkmans and iPlod for long periods; I have spent hours recording and mixing music while wearing enclosed headphones; and I have attended more live rock and metal gigs than I care to count

This might explain a lot of why you don't hear the beauty of vinyl.  Both the damage done to your hearing, and not having a good analog system, which you might not be able to hear even if you had one.
Hardy-ha-ha. What is the upper limit of your hearing may I ask? Have you had a professional hearing test recently? 16KHz is actually pretty good for someone of my age inspite of the abuse I have subjected my ears to. I would dearly love it to be better, but such is life and reflection on how sadly disapointing it is to grow old. Feel free to make snide remarks at my misfortune while you can still hear yourself laugh.
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


How is it that I can hear this impulse "click" when my hearing has been scientifically measured to be incapable of hearing anything above 16KHz????

You are smarter than this aren't you?  You can feel it in your body.  If I came up behind you and grabbed and shook your shoulders back and forth you would feel that.. but would not hear the frequency of such a low vibration relative to how we listen to music.
No, I can hear it with my ears. As can anyone. This has nothing to do with how smarter than this I am, this is me knowing what a 5.2us pulse is. This is me knowing the difference between a 5.2us pulse, a 5.2ms pulse and a 5.2s pulse and knowing that no one is physically capable of shaking me by the shoulders back and forth at 5.2us intervals.
 
Sure the human body is capable of sensing subsonic frequencies between 4Hz and 15Hz, (which are time intervals of 0.25s and 67ms respectively - some 13,000 times slower that 5.2us), unfortunately neither analogue nor digital media are capable of reproducing those subsonics. What you think you are feeling when a low frequence rumbles in your chest cavity is not as low as you think it is: feeling (and hearing) a low frequency (of say 30Hz) modulated with a lower subsonic frequency that an audio system can produce is not the same as feeling the lower subsonic alone that an audio system cannot produce. But that is completely irrelevant - a 5.2us pulse is not a low frequency vibration.
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

 
So have I now shot myself in the foot regarding Sean Beavan's comment that the human ear can detect differences as small as 6us? (or 6ms or 6ns or whatever actual number he was thinking of was)? [is this an example of me attacking those with greater knowledge?] ... No, I have not

Yes you have.  As long as you continue to believe that scientific knowledge trumps the human experience, you will continue to attack others who actually have greater knowledge in the wider human experience.  How smart would you be if I dropped you off in the middle of the jungle in Conga?  You would be hard pressed to survive while other "primitive" people would be eating and enjoying shelter while you struggle in your ignorance.
You have misread my statement and gone off on a bizzarre tangent (there is a jungle in a cuban drum???) and quite how you've determined what my jungle survival skills are based upon my post here defeats even my powers of deductive reasoning, but I imagine it was one of those safe bets in that very few people are capable of surviving unaided in a jungle situation, so quite what you intended to prove by making such a comment is anyone's guess.
Quote So have I now shot myself in the foot.... No, I have not
I was not answering the question in parenthesis - only Mr Acquiring the Taste can answer that particular question.
 
I do not know whether I believe that scientific knowledge trumps the human experience or not, but I do know I have never made such a statement. I do not recall ever attacking anyone who has greater knowledge, I'm sure I would have remembered such an incident. I do recall criticising some of the claims and statements made BY people who may or may not have greatger knowledge than me, and I have as much right to do that as they have in making those statements, but I have never attacked them.
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


It could be argued that if the science supports what our ears tells us is true in this example then it should support everything our ears tell us is true in every example. That would be a bold claim that needs to be supported by fact and obviously that requires every unsupported claim to be looked at from a scientific standpoint, which is all I have ever attempted to do here.

This is all you ever try to do, and why your arguments fail because of the very limited scope of your reference.  Science is only an attempt to explain things.. sometimes successfully for a time, and sometimes completely failing to explain things.  Very limited if you only use science.
Okay, next time I'll use magic, poetry and the suggestive power of expressive dance. Confused
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:



A claim made without the support of fact is irrelevant and meaningless.

This is probably the most ignorant statement I have ever heard you make.  I feel sorry for you if your life's experience is based upon this statement.  I love my wife, and do not view it as irrelevant or meaningless because science cannot properly explain why I do the things I do for her, and her for me.  But I really don't think you are that shallow of a person... just think about it a bit.
Taken out of context and extrapolated to the extreme practically any statement can be made to look ignorant, and that's exactly what you have demonstrated here. Well done. Award yourself a clappie Clap
 
Your entire response to my post has been pretty much what I expected, thanks for that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 19:23
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Anyone that claims that science is a belief system has totally failed to win me over in any argument. 


Some people believe in religion.
Some people believe in science.

It's just a belief system.  Hate to break the new to you on that. 

For me..

I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 19:30
I think if I am in the jungle, the mighty jungle, I am going to buddy up with Dean rather than surrealist............yes and as a note to you freewill is probably a belief system^
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 19:33
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Anyone that claims that science is a belief system has totally failed to win me over in any argument. 


Some people believe in religion.
Some people believe in science.

It's just a belief system.  Hate to break the new to you on that. 

For me..

I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill!




So if it is just a belief system, how does it make you right and others wrong...except within the four walls of your belief system?  You do see the inherent contradiction of your position, don't you?  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 19:40
even if the analysis does not demonstrate that vinyl is a perfect system that adds nothing to the original sound.

If a guitarist presses on a string against a metal fret positioned between the nut and bridge on a guitar..  the rest of the body is creating the vibratory sound that gives the guitar it's signature tone.  But to you this is distortion, even on an acoustic guitar.

In your perfect word, a guitar wound not have a body and the vibration of the string would be sampled digitally and perfectly replicated.  And while you would marvel at that perfection, the rest of the world including myself would know for a fact that that sound is stark, cold and awful.

So just as a Les Paul body enhances the sound of the string, so does a good analog set up.  The digital systems you guys love so much at best imprison the sound into that terrible sound you listen too because you don't know better for any number of reasons.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 19:47

So if it is just a belief system, how does it make you right and others wrong...except within the four walls of your belief system?  You do see the inherent contradiction of your position, don't you?
 

I just believe what Geddy sings... that's it.  Geddy is my religion.  It's a fact Geddy sang it.  It's a fact that Neil wrote it...
did Neil read it?   Did Ayn Rand think it?  Who can prove this?  Did Ayn have an experience that enabled her to write it from experience or is it fiction? Which is it? Fiction or Non Fiction? 

Is science reality or is it fiction? Science Fiction?  Is there such a thing as science fiction in reality?  Could science ever associate itself with fiction, yet alone used as words linking two concepts together?

Geddy knew...
He knew to listen,
and Neil knew it was right,
and Ayn channeled it,
and God made waves,
Permanent ones.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 19:52
Which is all fine and dandy but in a discussion that doesn't give you very much ground to disprove statements or support your own.   It seems your belief system hasn't taught you how to disagree.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 19:52
Smoke
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 20:15
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

even if the analysis does not demonstrate that vinyl is a perfect system that adds nothing to the original sound.

If a guitarist presses on a string against a metal fret positioned between the nut and bridge on a guitar..  the rest of the body is creating the vibratory sound that gives the guitar it's signature tone.  But to you this is distortion, even on an acoustic guitar.

In your perfect word, a guitar wound not have a body and the vibration of the string would be sampled digitally and perfectly replicated.  And while you would marvel at that perfection, the rest of the world including myself would know for a fact that that sound is stark, cold and awful.

So just as a Les Paul body enhances the sound of the string, so does a good analog set up.  The digital systems you guys love so much at best imprison the sound into that terrible sound you listen too because you don't know better for any number of reasons.
Confused Such an instrument would not be a guitar. A single plucked string without the formant of the instrument body is not a guitar, or a harpsichord, or a spinet, or a harp, or a lute, or a banjo, or a balalaika, or a zither, or a lyre, it's just a plucked string with no resonant sounding board. I'm somewhat bewildered at the analogy here and why you would even think this is even remotely relevant.
 
Yes, any modification of a pure tone is distortion, that's pretty much the definition of what distortion is, that's how any instrument works from a simple whistle through to the most complex analogue modelling synthesisers - tone is distortion just as the tone controls on an amplifier distort the audio, that is how they work. If what comes out of your speakers does not sound the same as what was recorded onto your preferred medium by the studio then the difference is a distortion of that original studio sound.
 
All you have done here is agreed with what I have been saying all along, what you appear to dislike and object to is the word "distortion" because it has negative connotations for you. I could substitute the words "colour" or "tone" if you prefer but that does not change what has happened to the sound passing through the system - it would sound exactly the same no matter what words I used.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 20:34
Then what we should agree upon is that digital lacks the distortion that makes music sound great.  Therefore digital leaves the listener with an awful sounding distortionless cold, toneless, heartless experience, and this is why a good analog set up is scientifically superior.

I can live with that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 01:18
LOL
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 05:53
Vinyl is clearly superior to CD but only if one has the right equipment to demonstrate it.
A rega planar 3 turntable playing an LP sounds better than any CD player at any price. Those who prefer CD have never 'heard' an LP.
Live Long and Prosper
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 05:54
All dogs have four legs. A cat has four legs. A cat is a  dog.

Edited by Snow Dog - December 03 2012 at 05:55
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