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JJLehto 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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 Posted: August 29 2013 at 08:03 |
Well, without numbers guess we cant know "how many" but honestly, the more conservative minded folk...seem quite overwhelmingly supportive of: military big as you can, invade anyone, it doesnt really matter. Certainly touching the military budget (even if I framed it in terms of reducing gov spending) usually gets me horrified looks and Im called a terrorist or something.
Of course, there's never really a good solution with this stuff and it's just impossible to know the results of intervention.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
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Points: 65550
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Posted: August 29 2013 at 19:50 |
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^ Well you live in a major oil/industry state; you mention cutting the military budget on the West Coast and people say "By how much and when can we get started?"
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 08:23 |
 Atavachron wrote:
^ Well you live in a major oil/industry state; you mention cutting the military budget on the West Coast and people say "By how much and when can we get started?"
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A fair point but honestly, I think that's not really it... I think it's more the fact they are West Coast States  Try "pennsyltucky" which actually has a generally libertarian streak, and see how they take to comments like cutting defense. In fact, I know how they respond and it's not very pleasantly.
It may be ignorance, but I've also explained my views to some and they just kinda retort with "its our safety!! ya want terrorists overruning us!? blagh ahhh!" and they are stuck in the view that the military is the protection of freedom and all. So when they hear cutting defense they pretty much think "wtf? you want to cut our freedom protectors?"
So I dont really believe America, overal, sees how bad and often counter productive our foreign policy is.
Edited by JJLehto - August 30 2013 at 08:26
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 08:45 |
Interesting how left and right come together to denounce war on the interwebz.  And yet, we see the facade of total consensus in the media, on TV. I heard that Britain has voted against the war. Great news...meanwhile, though, France seems inclined to ditch Germany for Uncle Sam? 
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20649
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 09:39 |
The title of this thread says...'Liberty will never die'....
Aren't many innocent people dying at the hands of a repressive regime? Do we help them (as we have others in the past) or just let it happen?
I certainly don't know the correct answer and I did post on another thread that the US should look at it's own monetary issues and people first.....but when is enough... enough?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 09:41 |
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Ermm....lol, since i am from the 'other side', i.e. the receiving end of the help, I shall refrain from commenting on that as you seem to be a passionate advocate of intervention.
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16828
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 10:01 |
dr wu23 wrote:
The title of this thread says...'Liberty will never die'....
Aren't many innocent people dying at the hands of a repressive regime? Do we help them (as we have others in the past) or just let it happen?
I certainly don't know the correct answer and I did post on another thread that the US should look at it's own monetary issues and people first.....but when is enough... enough?
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Shouldn't that be the responsibility of the people in those countries?
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 11:04 |
rogerthat wrote:
Interesting how left and right come together to denounce war on the interwebz. And yet, we see the facade of total consensus in the media, on TV. I heard that Britain has voted against the war. Great news...meanwhile, though, France seems inclined to ditch Germany for Uncle Sam? |
For once I've restrained my post (sorry for always dropping chapters on you guys) but yeah: I've noticed "true" righties aka libertarians and "true" lefties aka progressive can often agree, either outhright or at least have that fun grey area...pretty great I think!
dr wu23 wrote:
The title of this thread says...'Liberty will never die'....
Aren't many innocent people dying at the hands of a repressive regime? Do we help them (as we have others in the past) or just let it happen?
I certainly don't know the correct answer and I did post on another thread that the US should look at it's own monetary issues and people first.....but when is enough... enough?
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Well before anything, how many horrible regimes/crimes have we also let go entirely?
No doubt, it's a very difficult (realistically and emotionally) issue. Like my first sentence, does intervening once mean we must always? There are A LOT of bad things that happen. All the "western" countries could literally occupy their entire time and money to trying to solve every issue there is. But then, how do we pick and choose? Why try to help these suffering and not these?
It is painful though to see, I generally take a "natural process" view of things but of course this can be bloody and never lead anywhere.
I see it more a question of: what can realistically be done? Over "should we?"
Then the infamous $$/Mil Ind Com interests and etc etc etc I guess I figure: It seems hard enough to manage OUR country...trying to manage others is probably just near impossible, but doesn't mean we should never intervene. Or does it? IDK 
Edited by JJLehto - August 30 2013 at 11:11
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 12:57 |
Well, 80% of Americans want Congressional approval of a strike.
Opinions are very mixed of course on action itself and what exactly...but seems quite clear we actually want SOME amount of accountability. A little upsetting that number isnt near 100% but hey, at least we are questioning (erm awake) for this one...as opposed to the usual: have no idea wtf is happening, later say "hey what did you guys do? We sh- eh w/e" :(
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 15:41 |
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I'm not sure what do Americans gain from attacking Syria.
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16828
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 16:08 |
The T wrote:
I'm not sure what do Americans gain from attacking Syria. |
Israel gains a lot though!
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thellama73
Collaborator
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Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 8368
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 16:34 |
dr wu23 wrote:
The title of this thread says...'Liberty will never die'....
Aren't many innocent people dying at the hands of a repressive regime? Do we help them (as we have others in the past) or just let it happen?
I certainly don't know the correct answer and I did post on another thread that the US should look at it's own monetary issues and people first.....but when is enough... enough?
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If people want to go help the Syrians, I will not try to stop them, but when has military intervention by the US ever significantly improved the situation in a country like that? Is Libya better off? Is Egypt? Is Iraq? Maybe Iraq is a little better off, but that is only after more than a decade of constant occupation. Obama has admitted that he has no goal of regime change in Syria. He just wants to bomb the place to save face after his embarrassing "red line" speech. I don't like the fact that money is being taken from all the hard working Americans to pay for bombs being dropped, whether we approve of it or not.
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thellama73
Collaborator
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Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 19:50 |
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Teo said "I don't pay taxes to support wars in other countries that don't affect Americans one bit."Or something similar, but then deleted it, refusing to stand by his statements, like a coward.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 20:01 |
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Damn, that was harsh.
Yep, I wrote that and then deleted it because I had made a rather hurried statement that sounds extremely nation-selfish and wanted to refine it a little. But then again, that's what I think. I have never thought of my taxes as a way to pay for the army to go and save anybody anywhere but here. Sad, but true.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 20:09 |
Yesterday, I had a student tell me that Obama paid all his bills (such as his cell phone bill). 
That's public education for you.
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16828
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 20:21 |
Epignosis wrote:
Yesterday, I had a student tell me that Obama paid all his bills (such as his cell phone bill).
That's public education for you.
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"Public responsibility"
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20649
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 21:06 |
rogerthat wrote:
Ermm....lol, since i am from the 'other side', i.e. the receiving end of the help, I shall refrain from commenting on that as you seem to be a passionate advocate of intervention. |
If you are referring to me I'm not a passionate fan of intervention.....and where exactly are you from?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20649
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 21:08 |
King of Loss wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
The title of this thread says...'Liberty will never die'....
Aren't many innocent people dying at the hands of a repressive regime? Do we help them (as we have others in the past) or just let it happen?
I certainly don't know the correct answer and I did post on another thread that the US should look at it's own monetary issues and people first.....but when is enough... enough?
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Shouldn't that be the responsibility of the people in those countries? |
How exactly do they, the innocent, help themselves from chemical weapons and general oppression...?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20649
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 21:10 |
The T wrote:
I'm not sure what do Americans gain from attacking Syria. |
Nothing as far as I can see.....we never even got any 'cheap oil' from the Iraq debacle.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: August 30 2013 at 21:37 |
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