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JLocke View Drop Down
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 17:52
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

Usually they are destroyed by the media because they are crackpot nut cases like Ron Paul.


Could you tell me exactly what is crazy about Ron Paul?

His son. 


What exactly is crazy about his son?

While I can't accurately point to a specific instance at this moment, it seems to me that Rand Paul takes a much more naive view than his father does on some really important issues, and he's a prime example of why so many liberals view libertarians in the negative light they do. So I don't care much for him. That's just me. 


Edited by JLocke - November 01 2010 at 17:54
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 17:54
For me, it's a sign of craziness his desire to go back to the times when segregation was allowed, his acceptance of child labor, and his hair. Plus his fans who love to trample on other people... 

Of course when you agree with the first two it doesn't even sound crazy... 
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 17:55
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

For me, it's a sign of craziness his desire to go back to the times when segregation was allowed, his acceptance of child labor, and his hair. Plus his fans who love to trample on other people... 

Of course when you agree with the first two it doesn't even sound crazy... 

Does he really agree with segregation, or does he just care about private business owners' rights to deny to hire and serve whomever they wish? I know it can be viewed as pretty much the same thing, and as I said before, I don't agree with him, but from his perspective I don't really think he's looking at it the way we are.


Edited by JLocke - November 01 2010 at 17:56
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 17:56
I agree with that statement I think. That doesn't make him crazy. It just means he's not as intelligent, poised, or principled as his father.

However that's hardly a slight.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 17:58
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I you suggest an alternative to the one party system you are an idealist/extremist/unaware of how politics work/a conspiracy theorist.
 
 
You're not talking to me, right


Of course I am.

I was just referring to how 3rd parties candidates will be destroyed by the establishment media and written off by the other parties.
 
 
Was the "I you" that threw me off.  I don't think that third party candidates are destroyed by the establishment media, anymore, but that's only because they just completely ignore them instead.


Edited by manofmystery - November 01 2010 at 17:58


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JLocke View Drop Down
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 17:58
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I agree with that statement I think. That doesn't make him crazy. It just means he's not as intelligent, poised, or principled as his father.

However that's hardly a slight.

Well, me calling Rand a 'nutso' in an earlier post might have been a bit strong. I don't like him much based on what he seems to stand for, but he's not out of his mind.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 17:59
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

For me, it's a sign of craziness his desire to go back to the times when segregation was allowed, his acceptance of child labor, and his hair. Plus his fans who love to trample on other people... 

Of course when you agree with the first two it doesn't even sound crazy... 


Yeah, because it's far from crazy.

You have a right to associate or disassociate with anyone you chose for any reason you chose. Besides the fact that it's impossible to determine when an employer/seller/etc is discriminating against a class of people, they should be free to do so.

You probably don't disagree with black only fraternities or women's only gyms. Can you explain why these things are ok?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 18:00
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I you suggest an alternative to the one party system you are an idealist/extremist/unaware of how politics work/a conspiracy theorist.
 
 
You're not talking to me, right


Of course I am.

I was just referring to how 3rd parties candidates will be destroyed by the establishment media and written off by the other parties.
 
 
Was the "I you" that threw me off.  I don't think that third party candidates are destroyed by the establishment media, anymore, but that's only because they just completely ignore them instead.


Yeah that's a pretty bad typo.

I can agree with that, but ignoring is just as bad as discrediting in the political world.
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JLocke View Drop Down
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 18:02
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

For me, it's a sign of craziness his desire to go back to the times when segregation was allowed, his acceptance of child labor, and his hair. Plus his fans who love to trample on other people... 

Of course when you agree with the first two it doesn't even sound crazy... 


Yeah, because it's far from crazy.

You have a right to associate or disassociate with anyone you chose for any reason you chose. Besides the fact that it's impossible to determine when an employer/seller/etc is discriminating against a class of people, they should be free to do so.

You probably don't disagree with black only fraternities or women's only gyms. Can you explain why these things are ok?

I think it's more to do with people's civil rights. Race always muddies up those waters. As I've said before, however, if someone runs and privately finances his or her own business, that person should be allowed to serve or deny service to anybody they wish. And when word gets around that he's a bigoted ass-hat, people will stop giving him business. He'll then have to either bite his tongue and make intelligent decisions, or be happy with the slow death his store/restaurant/etc will ultimately suffer. Simple.

Forcing people in business to play fair was probably necessary at one time. That time has long passed, though. Most people are educated and fair enough on their own to do the right thing. Putting laws in place barring private businessmen from being idiots is just helping keep the idiots in business. I'd rather see the free market and people's own common sense take down the jerks. Leave the government out of it.


Edited by JLocke - November 01 2010 at 18:10
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 18:58
Then why doesn't Paul then talk in favor of man-only restaurants or black-only clubs? He's clearly talking about the type of segregation that stopped blacks. You say Pat that women-only clubs are the same, black-only clubs are the same. These are two minorities (women minority in power at least, and mostly until decades ago) that join organizations precisely to fight discrimination. But I don't see Paul saying "blacks have the right not to serve whites" or "women have the right to segregate men". He just doesn't like blacks, period. 

And only a stupid person would say that in a campaign if he ever wants to get somewhere anyway... Even if that's what he believes. 
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 19:06
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Then why doesn't Paul then talk in favor of man-only restaurants or black-only clubs? He's clearly talking about the type of segregation that stopped blacks. You say Pat that women-only clubs are the same, black-only clubs are the same. These are two minorities (women minority in power at least, and mostly until decades ago) that join organizations precisely to fight discrimination. But I don't see Paul saying "blacks have the right not to serve whites" or "women have the right to segregate men". He just doesn't like blacks, period. 

And only a stupid person would say that in a campaign if he ever wants to get somewhere anyway... Even if that's what he believes. 

No he's clearly not. You said in your post, a return to the segregation that was accepted. That's incorrect. Segregation wasn't accepted; it was forced upon people by government. People weren't segregating others, the government was segregating. Paul talks in favor of the right of association that comes naturally with ownership of property.

Your claims of his racism are completely unsubstantiated. How can you just shout out things like that? The two things I mentioned have nothing to do with segregation. Women only gyms exists because women feel more comfortable working out around women when they're sensitive about their weight. It's about a preference among people, and the right of a property owner to accept whomever he wants on his property for whatever reason he chooses. 

You say a stupid person, but you mean a principled person. To a principled person your job in a campaign isn't to trick people into electing you like you seem to believe. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 19:11
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I don't see Paul saying "blacks have the right not to serve whites" or "women have the right to segregate men". 


Well, has he said the contrary? Is there footage of him saying specifically that ''Whites should have the freedom to discriminate against blacks''?
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 19:25
T doesn't seem to understand that saying "property owners can do what they want with their property" implies the scenario where "blacks have the right not to serve whites".
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 19:28
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

For me, it's a sign of craziness his desire to go back to the times when segregation was allowed, his acceptance of child labor, and his hair. Plus his fans who love to trample on other people... 

Of course when you agree with the first two it doesn't even sound crazy... 


I agree with the first one, and your point about him not speaking out against women only clubs is silly because there are women only clubs and it is not illegal, so why should he need to speak out in favor of them? There are gay-only bars, and it's not illegal so why speak out in favor of them? Those things don't need protecting because they are already protected.
Point two I also agree with. Children should be allowed to work if they want.
Point three: yeah, his hair is stupid. You win on that one.
Point four: His fans don't love to trample other people. The women was trying to physically assault Paul and when his fans held her back, she threw herself to the ground to make it look like they had attacked her. One of them then placed his foot on her to prevent her from getting up. Source.
It's his word against hers, but I'll trust a Kentucky Libertarian over a MoveOn.org employee any day of the week.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 19:31
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

T doesn't seem to understand that saying "property owners can do what they want with their property" implies the scenario where "blacks have the right not to serve whites".

Well, that's what's confusing me. He seems so certain that Rand Paul doesn't mean that. So one would assume Teo has some sort of proof pointing to that suspicion. Otherwise, doesn't the over-assumptive nature of his accusation seem a bit bigoted itself?
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 19:35
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

T doesn't seem to understand that saying "property owners can do what they want with their property" implies the scenario where "blacks have the right not to serve whites".

Well, that's what's confusing me. He seems so certain that Rand Paul doesn't mean that. So one would assume Teo has some sort of proof pointing to that suspicion. Otherwise, doesn't the over-assumptive nature of his accusation seem a bit bigoted itself?

Bigoted might be a bit strong, but I'm pretty sure it's an assumption of T's.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 19:36
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


Point four: His fans don't love to trample other people. The women was trying to physically assault Paul and when his fans held her back, she threw herself to the ground to make it look like they had attacked her. One of them then placed his foot on her to prevent her from getting up. Source.
It's his word against hers, but I'll trust a Kentucky Libertarian over a MoveOn.org employee any day of the week.

See, now that's where I will have to disagree with you. Again. Embarrassed Don't take it personally.

It's been more than just one instance. Of course not all of Rand's supporters love to get violent, that's insane. But a good amount of them do. But that has nothing to do with the politician himself, anyway. Perhaps he should be more vocal and speak out against those few crazies in his following, but other than that he can't control what they do. So while I think you're wrong to assume that it's the victim's fault for being trampled, I still don't see where T has much of a point in that regard.

And choosing to believe everything a guy says just because of his location and/or political mindset (I'll trust a Kentucky Libertarian any day of the week.) is a bit silly, too. 


Edited by JLocke - November 01 2010 at 19:39
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 19:41
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


Point four: His fans don't love to trample other people. The women was trying to physically assault Paul and when his fans held her back, she threw herself to the ground to make it look like they had attacked her. One of them then placed his foot on her to prevent her from getting up. Source.
It's his word against hers, but I'll trust a Kentucky Libertarian over a MoveOn.org employee any day of the week.

See, now that's where I will have to disagree with you. Again. Embarrassed Don't take it personally.

It's been more than just one instance. Of course not all of Rand's supporters love to get violent, that's insane. But a good amount of them do. But that has nothing to do with the politician himself, anyway. Perhaps he should be more vocal and speak out against those few crazies in his following, but other than that he can't control what they do. So while I think you're wrong to assume that it's the victim's fault for being trampled, I still don't see where T has much of a point in that regard.

And choosing to believe everything a guy says just because of his location and/or political mindset (I'll trust a Kentucky Libertarian any day of the week.) is a bit silly, too. 

As you said, even if every one of his supporters murdered copious numbers of babies, that would say nothing of him and even less of his political philosophy. I think it's always silly when people have to speak out against extremists. I don't understand why that becomes the burden of someone.

Given all of the hoaxes used by the media to destroy Rand's chances, yeah I'll believe his side of the story on that account.

EDIT: LLama was deadly serious about trusting him because he's from Kentucky and a libertarian. Don't let him say it was humorous or something like that. 


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - November 01 2010 at 19:41
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 19:44
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


Point four: His fans don't love to trample other people. The women was trying to physically assault Paul and when his fans held her back, she threw herself to the ground to make it look like they had attacked her. One of them then placed his foot on her to prevent her from getting up. Source.
It's his word against hers, but I'll trust a Kentucky Libertarian over a MoveOn.org employee any day of the week.

See, now that's where I will have to disagree with you. Again. Embarrassed Don't take it personally.

It's been more than just one instance. Of course not all of Rand's supporters love to get violent, that's insane. But a good amount of them do. But that has nothing to do with the politician himself, anyway. Perhaps he should be more vocal and speak out against those few crazies in his following, but other than that he can't control what they do. So while I think you're wrong to assume that it's the victim's fault for being trampled, I still don't see where T has much of a point in that regard.

And choosing to believe everything a guy says just because of his location and/or political mindset (I'll trust a Kentucky Libertarian any day of the week.) is a bit silly, too. 


I wouldn't believe anything he says. You're certainly right about that being silly, but when you look at the history of this woman and the stunts she has pulled, I think her credibility is undermined pretty severely. The folks in the video don't look like they are viciously beating her to me, but it's always hard to tell with these things.

You're right that the behavior of the supporters doesn't  say much about the politician, but it annoys me that this is getting so much play when conservatives are routinely attacked physically by liberals and no one seems to care, but when it's a Rand Paul supporter it must mean he's crazy.
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2010 at 19:48
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

EDIT: LLama was deadly serious about trusting him because he's from Kentucky and a libertarian. Don't let him say it was humorous or something like that. 
 
 
For some reason JLocke cut the "over a MoveOn.org employee" out of llama's statement and then pieced the rest back together.  I'm not really sure why, though, considering this whole page has been about misrepresenting what people have said.


Edited by manofmystery - November 01 2010 at 19:49


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