A health care question...

thellama73 wrote: Easy Money wrote: thellama73 wrote: Easy Money wrote: thellama73 wrote: I don't see how a profit based health care system will always leave out the sick if they can pay for their treatments. and what is your preferred scenario if they can't pay for their treatments? The same as my scenario for people who can't pay their rent, or for their car, or for anything else in life. They find some family member, friend or charity willing to help them, or they don't get it. I know this is considered as an evil view point by some of you, but I don't see why doctor's services should be any different than any other service. If you perform a service, people should pay you for it, and the market should determine the price. I'm sorry, but I can't help but hope this happens to you someday, some have to learn the hard way. If this did happen to me and for some reason my loving family and friends weren't able to help me, I would be sad, but I wouldn't blame anyone for it. I wouldn't curse the evil greedy doctors or the evil greedy insurance companies or the evil greedy government , not even you . You'll have to blame yourself then, for not being rich enough. Shame on those who can't get rich!! I just don't view access to expensive medical treatments as a god given right. I don't think there are "god given rights" because I don't believe in god. I believe in HUMANS-given rights because we live in a society and we are not alone.  There are tons of things that people need to be healthy and happy: food, shelter, clothing, transportation, education, etc. But I don't think all these things should just be handed out for free as if by merely being born you've earned them. None is handing out health for free. People pay with taxes. And if you can't pay because you're sick and can't even work, good thing it would be that other people's contributions pay for your health. Not charity. Charity has NEVER fixed anything.  What makes a society great is the determination and persistence of its citizens. Or how it treats its worse-off. You don't get motivated by having everything handed to you on a tray. So half of Europe is made of lazy b*****ds it seems... and canadians, those bums.... (and they ARE paying.. with taxes). Of course there are tragedies. There are always going to be tragedies in any system, and we can grieve about them and do our part to minimize them, as we all should, but if people are allowed to avoid ducking responsibility for their own lives, we have no future as a nation.Great message. Now go talk with someone sick and suffering whom your beloved absolute market has denied health care and see if your message stays the same...  Lovely debating with you folks (I mean that sincerely.) Now I'm off to get some pizza with the money I earned from working at my job. Go eat pizza. Don't eat it too often or soon you'll be needing this damn health care thing...

Easy Money wrote: Here's my point guys, you guys are OK with some faceless, nameless mob being too poor to afford health care, but if it is Mr Llama, OMG! it's a sin, how could I say such a thing. Now I turn that back around to you, How can you say such a thing about people you don't know?

Slartibartfast wrote: If we just let the "undesirables" in society die, that just makes us a stronger people.  Thinning of the herd is the logical end of your point of view.

Lets get real here guys, my step-son was wounded in combat in Iraq and he can't get the operation he needs because the VA is a bunch of jackasses.

Now where is the outrage you felt for Mr Llama's hypothetical situation. The difference is my step son's situation is real, and he volunteered and fought and you didn't.

Hello Rob and Jim, where is your outrage now?

Edited by Easy Money - March 25 2010 at 21:14

Easy Money wrote: Lets get real here guys, my step-son was wounded in combat in Iraq and he can't get the operation he needs because the VA is a bunch of jackasses. Now where is the outrage you felt for Mr Llama's hypothetical situation. The difference is my step son's situation is real, and he volunteered and fought and you didn't. Hello Rob and Jim, where is your outrage now?

Un-f**king-believable. 

Easy Money wrote: Lets get real here guys, my step-son was wounded in combat in Iraq and he can't get the operation he needs because the VA is a bunch of jackasses. Now where is the outrage you felt for Mr Llama's hypothetical situation. The difference is my step son's situation is real, and he volunteered and fought and you didn't. Hello Rob and Jim, where is your outrage now?

Epignosis wrote: Easy Money wrote: Lets get real here guys, my step-son was wounded in combat in Iraq and he can't get the operation he needs because the VA is a bunch of jackasses. Now where is the outrage you felt for Mr Llama's hypothetical situation. The difference is my step son's situation is real, and he volunteered and fought and you didn't. Hello Rob and Jim, where is your outrage now? Un-f**king-believable.

Which part do you not believe?

CCVP wrote: Epignosis wrote: Easy Money wrote: thellama73 wrote: Easy Money wrote: thellama73 wrote: I don't see how a profit based health care system will always leave out the sick if they can pay for their treatments. and what is your preferred scenario if they can't pay for their treatments? The same as my scenario for people who can't pay their rent, or for their car, or for anything else in life. They find some family member, friend or charity willing to help them, or they don't get it. I know this is considered as an evil view point by some of you, but I don't see why doctor's services should be any different than any other service. If you perform a service, people should pay you for it, and the market should determine the price. I'm sorry, but I can't help but hope this happens to you someday, some have to learn the hard way. I really like you John, but I'm sorry, that's a dick thing to say, and it's exactly what Jim was saying earlier. You don't wish ill on someone just because you want them to learn a political lesson.  Boo.    Robert, this is not a politics, this is survival. On previous pages, people asked if it would be OK to give away food for those who can't buy it; in the USA that may be irrelevant, because very few people actually die of starvation, but here in Brazil people actually die of starvation and guess what? the government gives food away.   To think the human life is a matter of politics is quite frightening to me.

Our government gives away food too, and health care if you can't afford it.  It's called "Medicaid."  See, we already have this stuff. 

If you paid any attention to anything I've said in this thread, you will know that my position is not to deny life-saving medical care to anyone.

What I criticized in this post was the attitude, "I kinda hope you get sick and are poor so you can learn a lesson," especially coming from an admin.  Bad form. 

Easy Money wrote: Lets get real here guys, my step-son was wounded in combat in Iraq and he can't get the operation he needs because the VA is a bunch of jackasses. Now where is the outrage you felt for Mr Llama's hypothetical situation. The difference is my step son's situation is real, and he volunteered and fought and you didn't.

I'm sorry John, that's a shame, a vet friend of mine seems to get decent care from the VA but he doesn't need an operation of course.  

As far as doctors or drugmakers not profiting, no I don't believe in that, though I suspect one of the causes for big healthcare/drug manufacturing costs is the costs of the education in those fields--  those people paid and and devoted most of their lives for what they know..they want to be paid back, and paid well.  I suppose that's fair, and therefore they should be paid (within reason, say a standard retail percentage, like say around twice what something cost from the source).  So that leaves the question of how those professionals will be paid if their services are given to those who can't pay - or who pay a small amount into a general fund.

Politically, it's a hard argument to make in a 'civilized' country that it shouldn't come from a tax base, a formidable one at that.   Basically it comes down to this: saving money is great, and it provides a sense of security as well as a cushion during hard times, but if we're paying taxes then how should that fund be used?  I mean it has to be used for something--  if it's used for nothing then we become like the truly rich who spend as little money as humanly possible [which is of course one of the reasons they have $], and that's nice but what about the things that actually make life living, like, oh, I don't know, life itself.  Hopefully a life unhindered, if medically possible, by what ails us and prevents making our short time here worthwhile.  If your just naturally healthy (like myself), you're incredibly lucky.  If not, I wouldn't mind using more of the tax base to get you that rather pricey treatment or medicine that will help. 

Easy Money wrote: Epignosis wrote: Easy Money wrote: Lets get real here guys, my step-son was wounded in combat in Iraq and he can't get the operation he needs because the VA is a bunch of jackasses. Now where is the outrage you felt for Mr Llama's hypothetical situation. The difference is my step son's situation is real, and he volunteered and fought and you didn't. Hello Rob and Jim, where is your outrage now? Un-f**king-believable.  Which part do you not believe?

Your behavior.  That is what I don't believe.

I am biting my tongue, but I will say this:

You and some others act as though you are the only people who have had family to undergo misfortune and not get what they needed, or have to pay through the nose to get it.

Let me tell you something.  I have actually been denied surgery to correct something I still live with- a woman actually called me into her office and asked me some personal questions (which I, being young, answered), and then told me I really needed to be on welfare.

My wife and I sat for hours in a 24-hour urgent care when she had a severe problem down below (all I'll say here), and neither the doctors nor nurses did anything for her.  Nothing.  "It will clear up on its own."  We had to pay $600. 

With excellent PPO medical coverage through my former employer (taking $600 a month out of my paycheck), we still had to shell out $7000 to pay for the birth of our son, which we are not done paying for yet, and that was two years ago.

So I'm sorry, but if my own experiences regarding health care do not change my mind about it, your anecdote will not sway me.  You and some others here are not the only ones with a grievance regarding the system, but I refuse to sacrifice my principles because of them.

But wishing ill upon someone...as I said, that's unacceptable here.