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Raff 
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Joined: July 29 2005
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Points: 24429
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 Posted: March 18 2009 at 19:36 |
 Finnforest wrote:
 Well said. Agree with much of it although I'm not a fervent atheist. I'm an "I don't know" guy, the only honest answer I can make. I would add religion was a good control device for the masses.
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Sorry for the cut, but I hate quote pyramids  .... Anyway, I do agree with the 'control device' thing, even if I would never delude myself that, if religion was ever removed from the picture, all would be peace and love in the world. Personally, I think man has devised even more dangerous control devices than religion - such as patriotism (you start being proud of your country, and end up thinking it is better than the rest), and the cult of money and profit .
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
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Posted: March 18 2009 at 19:39 |
20 pages, superb 
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debrewguy
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Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
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Points: 3596
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Posted: March 18 2009 at 20:16 |
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There may or may not be a god, or gods. And frankly, this is not a subject that people around you are asking themselves about you.
So rather, worry about your body odor. Worry about your manners. Or, if those are properly taken care, of ...
then don't worry, there's likely something more pressing to worry about. If you want something to worry about that is.
The worrisome thing is that some people want something to worry about. But then maybe it's good if it keeps them occupied.
So don't worry. Unless you want to. Worry, that is.
Edited by debrewguy - March 18 2009 at 20:19
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Chris S
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Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
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Points: 7028
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 03:47 |
^ Well based on the near conclusions of this thread, I rest my case.....................
Amen for the subconscious.............
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65603
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 03:53 |
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I'm thinking donuts
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Dalezilla
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: July 28 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 5113
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 03:57 |
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Mmm donuts...
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 04:01 |
I did drop some texts in our previous pyramid of posts 
BaldJean wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
as it is with many founders of a religion, my belief is based on a mythical experience, only with us it is an experience two people had. one morning Friede showed me a poem she had just written. I read it, and my mouth dropped open. I asked her why she had written it, and she said it wqas based on a dream she had had the night before. the amazing thing is: I had had the same dream! if you are curious I can send you the poem wikth a rough translation (it is in German).
when sujch a thing happens you give it significance, and that was the birth of our religion. we had both not been religiously active at all in any way before, apart from taking part in the usual festivities of the Christian religion which have become part of our culture.
to believe in God the way I believe you just have to ask the question: where does our consciousness come from? it is a qestion scientists have not been able to answer yet, and it is a widespread belief among scientists of the human brain that we will never know. my answer is that once a process, like the process which iks going on in our brains, is sufficiently complex it develops a consciousness.
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Again you may not like my using the word superstition because of its negative tone ; like the brainwashing bit. but it's used correctly in our atheists way of seeing things. Supernatural beliefs are superstitions. Period!!! Don't see it as an insult, just take the word at face value.
If I had let these mystical things get in my way and let them influenced me in everyday life, I'd call my beliefs and visions superstitions as well.
Sooooooo....... Whether you like it or not the use of that word is correct and not insulting, even if you find it to be so!!.
But I really wish you wouldn't take offence, coz deep down after four years of discussing with you and Friede in this forum, I like you both  , just as I do with Ivàn (despite his pope   )  |
there is nothing supernatural in our beliefs at all; I thought I made that clear
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Trying to interpret dreams (which is grosso modo how your religion stated from what's highlighted in orange) is believing in the supernatural , since the dream might be premonitory or any other kind of supernatural phenomenon.
And probably like the Electric Prunes, you had too much to dream last night..... |
first of all: there is nothing supernatural about interpreting a dream. it is a basic method of psychoanalysis.
are all psychoanalysts supernatural quacks? >>> my first temptation is to answer YES to this in a broad general sense, but you're likely take more offence or give specific cases where it wouldn't be so. Analysts try to deal with the unrational sides of their patients
second: the dream only started us thinking. the religion is by no means based on the dream at all. >>> no but the simultaneousness of you two dreaming the same thing in the same bed did. And there is probably a very rational explanation for this "double dreaming" >> like you both fell asleep with the TV on or the radio or something else
let me ask you a question, Sean: where does your consciousness come from? and don't evade >>> no intention, I haven't so far!!
Our consciousness comes from what we (that's Atheists and non-atheists) call the soul. Different animal reigns have different type of souls or intellectual capacities, but none as pushed to the utmost as humans. Nobody can deny that some animals have what we call at least a part of a soul or consciousness >> cats and dolphins for example have more developped soul than snails and mice.
There is nothing supernatural about the soul, it lives in our world, the only world there is. And the soul dies once its support is dead. The supernatural things would be the survival of the soul once its life support, the body, dies. >>> so reincarnation and post-death life are pure supernatural beliefs
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Hopefully I didn't evade.
Edited by Sean Trane - March 19 2009 at 04:06
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
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Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 04:18 |
^ The mere thought of reincarnation absolutely terrifies me. I'll detour that station if I can 
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 05:39 |
Chris S wrote:
^ The mere thought of reincarnation absolutely terrifies me. I'll detour that station if I can |
Imagine being rincarnated in a flea or a worm!!! 
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 06:18 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 07:19 |
mmm buddism 
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Raff
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
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Points: 24429
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 07:26 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 07:36 |
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What?
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Ricochet
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Location: Nauru
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Points: 46301
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 07:44 |
Sure. The whole point, in buddism reincarnation, is to pay more attention to the nature that surrounds you, to find inner peace with it as well. Otherwise, reincarnation is pretty much unaccepted by the other major religions.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 08:38 |
Ricochet wrote:
Sure. The whole point, in buddism reincarnation, is to pay more attention to the nature that surrounds you, to find inner peace with it as well.
Otherwise, reincarnation is pretty much unaccepted by the other major religions.
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Theoretically, since it's the soul that gets reincarnated, it couldn't be reincarnated into a plant since plants have no soul.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 08:45 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
Sure. The whole point, in buddism reincarnation, is to pay more attention to the nature that surrounds you, to find inner peace with it as well.
Otherwise, reincarnation is pretty much unaccepted by the other major religions.
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Theoretically, since it's the soul that gets reincarnated, it couldn't be reincarnated into a plant since plants have no soul. |
ah-hem... animism
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What?
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 08:45 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
Sure. The whole point, in buddism reincarnation, is to pay more attention to the nature that surrounds you, to find inner peace with it as well.
Otherwise, reincarnation is pretty much unaccepted by the other major religions.
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Theoretically, since it's the soul that gets reincarnated, it couldn't be reincarnated into a plant since plants have no soul. |
Buddist think differently, I believe, admitting a bit of "animated" spirit (maybe not soul, but something of that quality nonetheless) in everything. Basically something Christian doctrine would call you an heretic for. And it's not about humans having different lives, but staying humanly. It's about going through "numerous lifetimes of spiritual striving, until you have reached the
end of the cycle of rebirth, no longer reincarnating as human, animal,
ghost, or other being" EDIT: Ah, I see Dean spotted the word: animism.
Edited by Ricochet - March 19 2009 at 08:46
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 09:45 |
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Ultimately, I'd take reincarnation over Hell/Heaven any day.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 11:06 |
InvisibleUnicorns wrote:
The bus company has every right to show the slogan, though it might be a stupid decision on their part (nevertheless it is their decision to make).
They have the right, but the workers also have rights.
If the bus company worker does not like the slogan, he should either suck up his pride and drive the bus or resign and find a company to work for where he will not have to drive such a bus. He is an expendable resource and the company should not have to bend to his wishes on the matter.
Suck uop his pride? Bend his wishes? Expendable resource?
I thought I am an ultra right oriented person, but there's peope who stuill believe the rights of the workers don't exist, that are more or less machines with flesh.
This si absud, the workers have rights acceopeted by the OIT and the UN,100 years of history of Unions means nothing for most of the people....Very sad.
Iván
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InvisibleUnicorns
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 130
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 11:45 |
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The worker joined the bus company on the condition that he would drive the buses they told him to drive. He does not want to do this, therefore he is not fulfilling his contract to the company.
As such, he should either suck up his pride and fulfill the contract, or he should put his principles first and apply to work at a different company (or start his own, or do something else to make ends meet, it doesn't matter really).
And yes, he is an expendable resource as far as the company is concerned. There are other people who can do the job better than he can (simply by virtue of their willingness to drive the bus he won't drive). If two workers do the same job equally well, it makes no difference to the company which one is working for them.
That said, of course he is a person and of course he has rights, but he does not or at least should not have the right to make the company bend to his wishes, especially when doing so will cause them to incur a loss. He agreed to work for the company on certain terms and he should stick to those terms.
He should meet with management and try and work out an arrangement that works for both the company and himself. If that doesn't work, then he should choose between leaving the company and sucking up his pride.
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