Dream Theater: Prog innovators or merely imitators - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Catcher10

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Posted: June 09 2014 at 21:51

Metallica IMO had one prog related song.....One

Dellinger

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Posted: June 09 2014 at 22:00

rogerthat wrote:

Another point is they have a tendency to rely on some cliched modes of developing songs. E.g The way Surrounded opens with some cheesy singing over piano and moves on to a fairly hard rocking section but over rather 'happy' chords is very 80s. That is also pretty typical of metal. The 80s defined metal's horizons for a very long time and that is probably still the case to an extent so 80s modes of songwriting are very popular in metal. Ballads HAVE to follow the power ballad pattern; there's no room for vulnerability, longing or tenderness as those are not very 'metal' qualities. You'd notice that while Petrucci is immensely talented, a lot of his solos follow the patterns that many 80s metal/hard rock guitarists favoured. Because if he tried to play like Hackett or Rothery, the fans wouldn't like it. LaBrie's overwrought singing also relates to this, though I wonder if he can indeed sing any other way, given how he renders even classics like Time. According to ex-Fates Warning vocalist Jon Arch, when he auditioned for Dream Theater, they tried to get him to sing in a way he didn't enjoy LOL

because that's what they wanted. They knew their audience well from the start and stuck to the winning formula. What I am saying is that is why you may be left with the feeling they don't have a particularly identifiable sound because it evokes 80s a lot.

I guess you could say LaBrie can sing very high or very softly. Though if he wants (or needs) to sing loud, he will go for that horrible high pitch of his. However, when he sings softly, such as he does with many of the other Pink Floyd covers, I actually rather enjoy his singing.

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Posted: June 09 2014 at 22:08

Dream Theater are hardly a favourite band of mine (although I do seem to own all their albums, go figure), but I definitely would consider them innovators of the prog-metal type bands. They're frequently referred to in reviews for other artists in the same genre, compared to even. They set a number of the elements that are quite cliched amongst those bands nowadays, and there's a reason there's not a lot of metal bands have come close to their level of status.

They are in serious need of some fresh inspiration and a rethink on how not to keep treading water and putting out rehashes of their earlier works, but definitely up until the last couple of albums I think they were certainly innovative.

rogerthat

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Posted: June 09 2014 at 22:36

Dellinger wrote:

LaBrie has a great voice and astonishing range. The problem is when he sings softly, he can try too hard to emphasise the emotions. The Hey You cover is a good example. When he sings in a more metal, loud way, his diction gets battered high up (chorus of Caught in a web).

Altairius

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Posted: June 09 2014 at 23:54

Innovators, obviously. The classic, "symphonic" prog metal style = DT

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 00:02

For a band that was formed in the mid-80's they are releasing some mighty good music. Even just looking at the big 6 prog acts of the 70's, how does their output from the 90's compare to Dream Theater's most recent albums? Yes and Pink Floyd had good decades (though PF only had one new studio album). King Crimson had also released some good music, though under different names. Jethro Tull released new music, though as far as I know, it went kinda unnoticed. ELP and Genesis released some notoriously bad albums (the rating speak for them, not me). These dates correspond with where DT is right now in their career, considering they are 20+ years removed from possibly their best album, I would argue that they are still doing very well and releasing some good music. Are they still innovating? That's debatable, and not very likely. But the only thing they are imitating at this point is themselves.

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richardh

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 01:05

rogerthat wrote:

It's a bit of both. One thing you have to understand is metal dudes think there is no other music like metal on the planet. Yeah, everything else, be it rock, jazz, classical, funk whatever is grossly inferior. Therefore, for everything rock does, there has to be a metal equivalent because that is what metalheads are going to listen to. (And by the way, I refer here to a certain kind of metalhead. Not all metalheads, including self, are like that). They don't want Zappa or Sparks, they want Faith No More or Freak Kitchen which is basically the metal equivalent of those bands/artists. Likewise, they don't want Rush or Yes. They want a metal equivalent of these bands. That is the gap that Dream Theater filled in the 90s. Since there had been no out and out metal band before (Deep Purple/Rainbow don't count, I mean metal influenced by Iron Maiden/Metallica) that relied so much on complex keyboard-guitar interplay, there was a certain freshness to their sound at that time. Fates Warning was already doing something somewhat on those lines but they were a lot tighter and relied less on long interludes. DT by incorporating long interludes evoked prog rock a lot more. In fairness to them, Petrucci's guitarwork was also more inspired at that time and showed more than just flashes of originality. But after a while, as it happens with so many bands, DT became a formula to endlessly regurgitate for the satisfaction of fans and the 'dream' part of the name receded in relevance. I mean, it's more like they are dreaming they are still in the 90s, still just released Images & Words. They aren't really dreaming up anything fresh. And again, that is hard and a lot of bands that lasted that long got stuck in a rut so there's no reason why DT should be singled out for criticism on that count.

Interesting comments but I don't agree that Dream Theater carried on copying Images and Words. I think their albums certainly up to about Octavarium were distinct in style. Train Of Thought was almost a complete curve ball some might say. I think they got a bit lost after that though. All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.

rogerthat

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 01:37

Didn't say they were just copying. Just that at times they have sounded as if they are in a time warp,still in the 90s, having just released Images and with more to come. They didn't respond to changes in the Noughties the way, say, PoS did. And that happens to lots of bands, nothing new.

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 05:21

Catcher10 wrote:

Metallica IMO had one prog related song.....One

I think the title tracks of Justice and MoP would count too, if One does. Even something like the Four Horsemen, while not as dynamic, has more different sections to it than One.

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 08:49

It's no secret I'm not a Dream Theater enthusiast and although I can admire their technical proficiency, I do so with the same lukewarm regard I reserve for the sterile professionalism embodied by my Dentist. However, I've never really bought into the idea that DT provide a portal to the wider compass of Prog for initiates. Apart from the versions of so-called classic Prog tracks on Jordan Rudess solo albums and those covered by DT, I can't see any evidence for anyone sprinting down to a record store to buy all the Genesis, ELP, Yes, Crimson or Gentle Giant that they can afford after hearing a DT album. OK, it might turn a plain vanilla metal-head onto the likes of Rush, Opeth, Tool, Pain of Salvation etc but to my ears, DT is that tattooed chick in the leather pants who works in the library, has a share portfolio but considers gambling abhorrent and deems complete derangement of the senses might be delivered via a double skinny macchiato with croutons.

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 08:58

Always enjoy your posts RT, but i'm not sure that DT ever truly came up with their own original identifiable sound (and I have all their albums) as opposed to a group like Rush who took their metal and prog influences and forged them into their own original trade mark sound and are still making quality music right up to now, IMO. So it's not a matter of me picking on a band for falling into a rut or getting complacent but of one not being able to meld it's various influences into a distinct musical identity. Again, all of this my subjective opinion which at the end of the day means scwat! LOL

Edited by SteveG - June 10 2014 at 09:04

infandous

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 09:20

Catcher10 wrote:

Metallica IMO had one prog related song.....One

I'd actually say that is one of the LEAST prog related songs on that album. Just my opinion. And we're supposed to be talking about DT Wink

infandous

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 09:29

SteveG wrote:

Well, I think DT certainly has developed a distinctive style of their own. I think they pushed metal into new directions (which is something I KNOW Metallica did). However, to me, it seems they have been copying themselves (and other bands) since at least 6 Degrees......possibly even earlier.

Personally, I have encountered DT fans that have come to prog thanks to them. Sure, some of them never went beyond prog metal, but some did actually discover they liked the old Genesis, Yes, ELP, etc. stuff. They certainly helped to make the prog genre as a whole more visible to a lot more people. Sure, they probably didn't add any fans to RPI and RIO and Canterbury, but they certainly elevated the modern prog scene to some extent.

rogerthat

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:01

SteveG wrote:

Always enjoy your posts RT, but i'm not sure that DT ever truly came up with their own original identifiable sound (and I have all their albums) as opposed to a group like Rush who took their metal and prog influences and forged them into their own original trade mark sound and are still making quality music right up to now, IMO. So it's not a matter of me picking on a band for falling into a rut or getting complacent but of one not being able to meld it's various influences into a distinct musical identity. Again, all of this my subjective opinion which at the end of the day means scwat! LOL

Oh, I was not targeting your post when I said what I did about DT simply going through what many bands that have been around for a long time tend to.

But as for a distinct musical identity, well, it depends on whether you accept the premise that prog metal has its own distinct identity. I do, because prog rock doesn't rely anywhere as much on heavy guitar riffs. With that established, it has to be said that DT are one of the definitive and one of the most influential prog metal bands. Sure, there were a few bands that preceded them, but it was after Images & Words that prog metal grew rapidly. As Aussie Byrd Brother said, they are the band with which other prog metal bands are most frequently compared and that says it all. There are, as I pointed out earlier, certain very generic elements and approaches to prog rock within the typical melodic prog metal sound that DT have defined. But it is they who did it and other bands simply followed their lead. So I would rank them as one of the most original and distinct bands in all rock music from the 90s even though I am definitely not a huge fan of them. Yes, I don't think they have been as original as Yes or Genesis or Rush but there are plenty of other prog rock bands who are far more culpable in that regard than DT. Certain contemporaries of DT that I shall not name here, for instance. Wink

rogerthat

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:03

King Crimson776 wrote:

Catcher10 wrote:

Metallica IMO had one prog related song.....One

I think the title tracks of Justice and MoP would count too, if One does. Even something like the Four Horsemen, while not as dynamic, has more different sections to it than One.

Ditto. Probably also Orion.

SteveG

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:04

infandous wrote:

SteveG wrote:

[QUOTE=rogerthat] It's a bit of both. One thing you have to understand is metal dudes think there is no other music like metal on the planet. Yeah, everything else, be it rock, jazz, classical, funk whatever is grossly inferior. Therefore, for everything rock does, there has to be a metal equivalent because that is what metalheads are going to listen to. (And by the way, I refer here to a certain kind of metalhead. Not all metalheads, including self, are like that). They don't want Zappa or Sparks, they want Faith No More or Freak Kitchen which is basically the metal equivalent of those bands/artists. Likewise, they don't want Rush or Yes. They want a metal equivalent of these bands. That is the gap that Dream Theater filled in the 90s. Since there had been no out and out metal band before (Deep Purple/Rainbow don't count, I mean metal influenced by Iron Maiden/Metallica) that relied so much on complex keyboard-guitar interplay, there was a certain freshness to their sound at that time. Fates Warning was already doing something somewhat on those lines but they were a lot tighter and relied less on long interludes. DT by incorporating long interludes evoked prog rock a lot more. In fairness to them, Petrucci's guitarwork was also more inspired at that time and showed more than just flashes of originality. But after a while, as it happens with so many bands, DT became a formula to endlessly regurgitate for the satisfaction of fans and the 'dream' part of the name receded in relevance. I mean, it's more like they are dreaming they are still in the 90s, still just released Images & Words. They aren't really dreaming up anything fresh. And again, that is hard and a lot of bands that lasted that long got stuck in a rut so there's no reason why DT should be singled out for criticism on that count.

Can't deny the importance of DT as originating the prog/metal genre. But as for influencing other metal bands, i don't know, seems like it's a back and forth thing and I listen to a lot of metal. SG

Edited by SteveG - June 10 2014 at 10:27

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:45

richardh wrote:

...
All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.

Strange ... their last album sold just as well as almost any of their albums.

Like my review of the book on them, this is a band that deserves a lot more credit for what they do. Just because it "sounds" like "metal", does not mean that the compositional side of the work they do is not well done, or worthy of attention. Their work is very good and well defined, despite the usual fickle-ness of many fans liking one thing over another. I don't hear Richard saying that he likes Beethoven's 5th and the other symphonies are the sukk'iaki! Or anyone else for that matter.

It kinda tells you that the media today, while helping us HEAR all these things, are also having us hear comments that makes us not understand or be able to actually listen to these things. MY EXPERIENCE, of listening to these long cuts is no different than listening to the 5th or the 9th or the Rite of Spring. I can close my eyes, and the mind trips! Even their lyrics, which many do not like and consider not very good, do not seem to disturb the "visual" that I have of it all while listening. And to me, that is the most enjoyable moments in music, so if I hear a guitar going all over for 5 minutes, is it any different than a violin in a Concerto by Mozart or anyone else? Except that you and I would say, today, that blah and blah, because we're not listening to the whole thing ... we're separating elements that we don't like!

Did you do that when you first heard Debussy? Stravinsky? Mozart? ... why are we doing it to rock or jazz music?

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:53

So you don't have any artists in your collection, where you dislike certain albums, songs or even sections where you think the expression is flat/boring/tasteless?

I think it's fair to be critical in one's approach to music. Perhaps not over critical, but still. Or else we'll all wind up loving everything equally and nothing is 'better' or 'worse' according to one's own taste (I know these two adjectives are highly overused in regards to music, but at least from a personal pov, people should be able to pinpoint something akin to personal preferences).

Regarding DT: I like some of their early stuff, but I'm not ashamed to say that I find Labrie's vocals incredibly margarine-like and more than often irritating.

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rogerthat

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 11:00

^^^ Further, if one doesn't like a piece of music, beyond a point it's not worth banging one's head in vain trying to get to what the artist wanted to convey. Sometimes one may not be able to relate to it and that's ok. There's also no point in pretending that bands do not ever get boring or predictable or repetitive over a period of time. It does happen to lots of bands and has a lot to do with rock's insistence on one 'loyal' lineup of supposedly indispensable artists which can reduce the scope for a fresh source of influence or ideas over time.

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Posted: June 10 2014 at 12:08

ExittheLemming wrote:

It's no secret I'm not a Dream Theater enthusiast and although I can admire their technical proficiency, I do so with the same lukewarm regard I reserve for the sterile professionalism embodied by my Dentist. However, I've never really bought into the idea that DT provide a portal to the wider compass of Prog for initiates. Apart from the versions of so-called classic Prog tracks on Jordan Rudess solo albums and those covered by DT, I can't see any evidence for anyone sprinting down to a record store to buy all the Genesis, ELP, Yes, Crimson or Gentle Giant that they can afford after hearing a DT album. OK, it might turn a plain vanilla metal-head onto the likes of Rush, Opeth, Tool, Pain of Salvation etc but to my ears, DT is that tattooed chick in the leather pants who works in the library, has a share portfolio but considers gambling abhorrent and deems complete derangement of the senses might be delivered via a double skinny macchiato with croutons.

Actually, that's what I did, and I'm being completely serious too.

Within a couple months of owning all of DT's albums I had gone out and gotten all the Rush, Yes, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Jethro Tull, and ELP albums I could afford, and even a King Crimson album. For me, Dream Theater was a gateway to prog. I doubt I am the only one either.

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