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Bonnek View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2011 at 15:17

^^ I do say the craziest things Smile
But you phrase very aptly what I was trying to say in that one-liner.
I do like our sub-genres as they give an idea of what sound/style to expect, but they are not an end in themselves.
And besides, Symphonic is exactly where I'd expect Townscream to be.






Edited by Bonnek - November 15 2011 at 16:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2011 at 19:02
Great posts David.

I'll agree with those who see Townscream as a symphonic prog based prog band with a lot of other influences like Classical and Folk (similar to After Crying and Harmonium).

Given the decision of the Symphonic Prog Team, I'll pass the band further to the Eclectic Prog Team.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2011 at 22:12
Originally posted by yam yam yam yam wrote:

 
 
Thanks again for your reply. I do understand your team's stance regarding the type of artists you are willing to accept, but I hope you can also see the problem we can sometimes end up with if every team on the site were to adopt the same approach. Prog artists that simply 'do not fit' anywhere are going to end up being missed out altogether, and that cannot be good for the site.

Yam Yam, normally no band is kept outside Prog Archives (If it's Prog, it finds it's place), but the fear of not entering to PA  doesn't justify to add a band to Symphonic that all the Symphonic Team  members and even Csaba Vedres believe is not even completely prog.

Originally posted by Csaba Vedres site Csaba Vedres site wrote:

Our music is perhaps the closest to progressive rock, with a classical-music flavour added by the two string instruments.
http://www.vedrescsaba.hu/english/townscream.htm 

He doesn't talk about Symphonic, he talks about something close to Prog with a Classixcal sound provided by two instruments, he's pristine clear

I honestly believe it's only Prog Related, but my responsibility is limited to Symphonic Prog, if any other team accepts them, i will say nothing, remember, we are three members and the three agree we are not talking about a Symphonic band and at least two not even about a full prog band.

Thanks for your comprehension again.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 15 2011 at 22:20
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2011 at 22:18
And Bonnek, I never tell you what band I expect to see in Prog Metal or heavy Prog, please gives us the same respect.

Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2011 at 00:27

Interesting to see how I should not have an opinion on symphonic.


Edited by Bonnek - November 16 2011 at 00:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2011 at 08:12
Opinion YES Bonnek

You can say I believe, or I think....But EXACTLY WHERE I EXPECT TO SEE THEM is not an opinion only.sounds almost as an order

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 16 2011 at 08:23
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2011 at 08:42
Does any band these days come out theses days and say "we are Progressive Rock"? I think when he says "perhaps closest to Progressive Rock" he's trying not to pigeonhole the music and I am sorry Ivan but your use of English here is either lacking or disingenuous.He is in fact saying that they are Prog Rock but there is "more" to their music.

This band is a Symphonic Prog band if I ever saw one. For heaven's sake, this is like some mad dream....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2011 at 09:03
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Does any band these days come out theses days and say "we are Progressive Rock"? I think when he says "perhaps closest to Progressive Rock" he's trying not to pigeonhole the music and I am sorry Ivan but your use of English here is either lacking or disingenuous.He is in fact saying that they are Prog Rock but there is "more" to their music.

This band is a Symphonic Prog band if I ever saw one. For heaven's sake, this is like some mad dream....


Tony, I don't understand why can't we have our own criteria.

Two out of three sites say it's not Symphonic (They point towards Eclectic or Xover) and the three members of the team say it's not Symphonic, we have to fight the case. 

This is clear for us



This is not Symphonic here or in China, it's some sort of electronic Folk.



This is some sort of World Music in the vein of peter Gabriel, not Symphonic at all

.

This is not Symphonic, this is somne sort of Jazzy ELP influenced Folk song



Pastoral Folksy  acoustic track, nice but not Symph



Please, we have listened  all the tracks

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 16 2011 at 10:03
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2011 at 09:10
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Opinion YES Bonnek

You can say I believe, or I think....But EXACTLY WHERE I EXPECT TO SEE THEM is not an opinion only.sounds almost as an order

Iván

As long as he write _where_I_expect_ I'd sat he's still only expressing his opinion. Would be different if he had written something like 'where anyone would expect'.
Let's stick to the content, apparently there are some people who have a different opinion than the symphonic team - that's fine, as long as it's discussed in a civil manner. If every post is going to be evaluated word for word to find possible underlying motives, I'll put a lock on this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2011 at 09:40
Just a suggestion, but I would think that this conversation would be best moved to the CZ now.    
...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2011 at 07:46
Originally posted by yam yam yam yam wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


Hi Yam Yam, it's the first time I talk to you, so glad to meet you.

My impression and the impression of the team, is that Symphonic is not the most preeminent element in this band, I personally believe there's a lot of mainstream, plus Folk, plus Jazz, plus a lot more sounds, moods and styles.

Our duty is to accept them or not in Symphonic, and by unanimous vote we don't think they are Symphonic because Classical influence + Rock is not always Symphonic Prog.

The options for me are 
  1. Prog Related
  2. Crossover
  3. .Eclectic
In that order, but in no way we can tell a team to accept or reject them, it's their call, and I would be glad to see them in Prog Archives.

I thank you for your comprehension, and only disagree with you in one point, Symphonic is not the main element.

People tend to mistake Classical or Neo Classical with Symphonic, they listen a cello or a violin and almost immediately think in Symphonic...IMHO Townscream, is a good Rock band with some Classical influences, a lot of Jazz, some Folk and even traces of Minimalism, Except for the first track, I don't listen Symphonic, each track is different to the previous.
 
We are having a similar problem now, Marty McFly sent us a FANTASTIC 100% PROG CZECH BAND CALLED JAN SPALENÝ, IMHO is one of the best bands I ever heard, but sadly is a blend of Psych + Jazz + Heavy Prog + some sort of bard in the vein of Vladimir Vysotsky.

We would had loved to accept the band, but itżs not Symphonic, only fantastic Prog.

Probably we will send them to Eclectic for analysis and hope they are accepted, and if not, they will have to go to Xover  and if not, to  Prog Related....And if they end in PR  I won't see that as an insult, because Prog is not an award, just a genre, we haven't created Prog Related to insult artists, just to add artists not fully Prog.

Glad to talk with you, and hope you understand our team's position and agree to disagree with us.

Thanks

Iván
 
Thank you for your reply Iván.
 
I have every respect for you and your team's knowledge regarding what constitutes true symphonic prog, and fully accept what you say concerning this band 'Townscream'. I too did not consider it a genuine symphonic prog album, but thought from my own rather limited understanding of the sub genre that maybe it had more of this represented within the music than any of the other specialised sub genres that are available for us on progarchives. Herein lies the problem of course - our sub genres are all quite specialised, with the exception of prog related and to a lesser extent, crossover. Therefore when an artist such as Townscream with such a diverse range of musical styles pops up, we inevitably have a problem finding a suitable home for them. Other prog sites do not have this problem - they do not divide their database into specialised sub genres in the way that we do - they just add an artist if they are considered prog and that's it...job done! We try to go a step further and classify an artist more narrowly within the overall progressive rock genre which is one of the reasons why our site is probably the best and most informative of all of them. However, sometimes this can work against us, and an artist such as Townscream who cannot be neatly fitted into one of our sub genres can end up being lost to the site altogether, leaving a gap in our database which the other sites do not have. The point I was trying to make was that in a case like this we should maybe encourage the team whose sub genre is considered the most appropriate to relax their guidelines a little and try to accommodate the band rather than enforcing them rigidly and the band thus being rejected from the site altogether. Hopefully, either eclectic or crossover team will adopt this approach and the band will be added to one of those sub genres in the near future, but I often think that the approach of the prog metal team is perhaps the best in a situation like this. Karl (bonnek) once said in a reply to one of my posts, when I said I couldn't hear much metal in a band they'd just added: "if it's prog and there's a scrap of metal in it, then we'll annexe it". Sometimes, and certainly in cases like this, I think this approach is highly laudable - some my say that it devalues the integrity of the database to do this, but since none of the other sites seem to bother with prog sub genres anyway, I really don't think it matters.
 
Thanks again for your reply. I do understand your team's stance regarding the type of artists you are willing to accept, but I hope you can also see the problem we can sometimes end up with if every team on the site were to adopt the same approach. Prog artists that simply 'do not fit' anywhere are going to end up being missed out altogether, and that cannot be good for the site.


The Eclectic Team has (from the time I've been on the team) a fairly liberal attitude toward suggestions.  We (each individual team member) rarely use the "No" vote (i.e., not prog at all).  We do use the "move" vote rather often, and sometimes when no other team will accept the band, we adopt it, hoping it can be moved to a more appropriate subgenre later (if another would have it).

I'm checking out this group now, so I'll let you know what I think.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2011 at 08:15
I completely agree with Ivan.  This is hardly symphonic prog.  It is however, Eclectic prog I say.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2011 at 10:43
After all the "problems" made about us rejecting TOWNSCREAM from Symphonic, Robert from the Eclectic team seems to agree with us:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I agree with Ivan that Townscream most certainly is not symphonic prog.  What I heard consisted of pastoral folk, Peter Gabriel-like songs, jazz rock, and more.  I vote Yes. 

Please guys, we listen all the albums before we give an opinion, sometimes one track or two (As in the case of Guruh Gipsy also accepted by Eclectic), may sound close to Symphonic, but when you listen all the album, it sounds like something completely different.

Please Bonnek, Tony, NotaProghead, trust us, we know our job and we are very careful when analyzing a band. (Don't mention Yam Yam, because we talked a lot about the issue y pleasant and interesting PM's)

We may have different perspectives about where the band should go, but our only job is to say yes or no to Symphonic, and if you check Robert's arguments arguments, all of them are very close to ours (Including the Peter Gabriel lime music).

Thanks and patience for those who suggest bands, be sure we will always do our best.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 24 2011 at 10:56
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2011 at 10:53
Scandal? Shocked
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2011 at 10:55
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Scandal? Shocked

Well, small conflict. LOL

I received some pretty strong PM's (Not from YAM YAM, he was very nice or from the guys I mentioned).

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 24 2011 at 11:07
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 25 2011 at 07:50
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
Please Bonnek, Tony, NotaProghead, trust us, we know our job and we are very careful when analyzing a band.

We may have different perspectives about where the band should go, but our only job is to say yes or no to Symphonic....

Thanks and patience for those who suggest bands, be sure we will always do our best.

Iván, your post disarmes me, really. Smile

I have no problem if Townscream will be in Eclectic. But we definitely have different views, I feel this band is more symphonic than something else. This remark by Tony R shows that I'm not alone:
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

This band is a Symphonic Prog band if I ever saw one. For heaven's sake, this is like some mad dream.... 
 

In another post you've said that your team is going to move After Crying to different genre. I can't understand this. In my opinion this band is more symphonic than Yes and Genesis together.

No battles or scandal, I'm only trying to understand Symphonic team criteria.
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 25 2011 at 09:45
NotAProghead, I posted 4 songs in a previous post, none of them is Symphonic, this means at least 50% of the album is not Symphonic

Almost every site calls the Eclectic.

Robert from the Eclectic Team admits the band is not Symphonic:

Quote

Originally posted by Epignosis

I agree with Ivan that Townscream most certainly is not symphonic prog.  What I heard consisted of pastoral folk, Peter Gabriel-like songs, jazz rock, and more.  I vote Yes. 

What else do you ask?

Iván


            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 25 2011 at 09:51
^ well, not that, that's for sure. Wink
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 25 2011 at 10:11

I can't think of any ELP album that doesn't have at least a couple of songs that are not symphonic (let alone Prog).

Same goes for Yes and Genesis, who both had their heavy Prog moments as well as lot of pop influences.
Yes even flirted with jazz on occasion.

Could be an interesting winter...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 25 2011 at 10:20
Other moments are incidental.  I can't think of any symphonic bands with more than two albums that are "purely" symphonic.  The same can go for many other genres. 

When I judge whether or not a band is Eclectic prog or not, I ask these questions:

1) Do single albums or tracks manifest multiple (i.e., more than two) genres of music on a rather consistent basis?
2) Does the band display radical shifts in sound throughout their discography (like King Crimson) while still remaining prog?

Townscream satisfied #1, so I voted Yes for Eclectic.
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