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JJLehto 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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 Posted: January 20 2011 at 23:34 |
 Triceratopsoil wrote:
they should sell heroin at the pharmacy
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Well they used to! In the good ol days  I am a bit surprised to see the voting has so many "yes" votes thus far. I'll add one more to the yes column.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 00:23 |
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Yes. I'm tired of the impure sh*t they sell in the streets. I'm anxious to be able to cook my own rock.
Really, 100% yes. People should be free to do whatever they want with their body.
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 00:43 |
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Portugal decriminalized them and they're fine. I would start with marijuana (yes, not a hard drug) first though to see how the country reacts.
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 07:11 |
Kestrel wrote:
Portugal decriminalized them and they're fine. I would start with marijuana (yes, not a hard drug) first though to see how the country reacts.
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It ain't as peachy as you make it sound, though.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 08:19 |
Who is going to pay for the increase in medical expense? Just wondering.
The most potent opiate available, Fentanyl, sometimes called China White, is used in anesthesia and not suprisingly the most common abusers are people who work in operating rooms. The life expectancy after the first time one does IV fentanyl is 18 months.
PCP is notorious for causing people to harm themself and/or others.
The hypersexuality caused by meth leads to pregnancies that often lead to children living in truly atrocious situations.
Individuals don't live in a vacuum. Lots of other people get harmed when these powerful chemicals ruin people's lives. And addiction is not a trait of the weak. It's part of the way we're all wired.
I voted yes in the other poll...but no here. There's a big difference between coffee, THC, alcohol, LSD, PCP, herion, etc. etc.
Alcohol is much more dangerous than THC though.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 08:49 |
General reminder.
Please remember our rules relating to illegal activities. Do not use this forum to promote the use of illegal drugs.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 08:59 |
Negoba wrote:
Who is going to pay for the increase in medical expense? Just wondering. The most potent opiate available, Fentanyl, sometimes called China White, is used in anesthesia and not suprisingly the most common abusers are people who work in operating rooms. The life expectancy after the first time one does IV fentanyl is 18 months. PCP is notorious for causing people to harm themself and/or others. The hypersexuality caused by meth leads to pregnancies that often lead to children living in truly atrocious situations. Individuals don't live in a vacuum. Lots of other people get harmed when these powerful chemicals ruin people's lives. And addiction is not a trait of the weak. It's part of the way we're all wired. I voted yes in the other poll...but no here. There's a big difference between coffee, THC, alcohol, LSD, PCP, herion, etc. etc. Alcohol is much more dangerous than THC though. |
Those are all very good reasons that people shouldn't do them. There are very good reasons that people shouldn't consume 4000 calories a day, get less than an hour of exercise a week, drive while tired, clean their countertop after cutting raw meat on it, have unprotected sex with strangers, fail to install smoke detectors, live in places prone to earthquakes or tornados, purchase flat screen tvs on credit while unemployed, drive in the snow without proper equipment, smoke while they're falling asleep, play high stakes poker while they're drunk, or watch Jersey Shore.
We as a society should probably condemn all of these things. That does not mean we should use force to prevent them from occurring anywhere within our borders. Forget arguments about freedom, prohibitions don't work. They don't effectively remove goods from a marketplace. Especially as a bankrupt country, we can not afford to pour billions of dollars into a drug war which does nothing besides breed corruption of officials, disrespect for the law, create and fund violent gangs, encourage the production of more potent narcotics, and divert police resources away from true crimes which real, physical victims rather than abstract, nonsensical victims such as society and morality.
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - January 21 2011 at 09:00
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 09:00 |
Easy Livin wrote:
General reminder.
Please remember our rules relating to illegal activities. Do not use this forum to promote the use of illegal drugs. |
Don't worry I got it under control for you. I already banned Stoney.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 09:22 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
We as a society should probably condemn all of these things. That does not mean we should use force to prevent them from occurring anywhere within our borders. Forget arguments about freedom, prohibitions don't work. They don't effectively remove goods from a marketplace. Especially as a bankrupt country, we can not afford to pour billions of dollars into a drug war which does nothing besides breed corruption of officials, disrespect for the law, create and fund violent gangs, encourage the production of more potent narcotics, and divert police resources away from true crimes which real, physical victims rather than abstract, nonsensical victims such as society and morality.
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I actually am quite conflicted on this one. Your arguments about central top-down control in this case have a lot of legitimacy in my mind.
However, the victims aren't abstract. At least around here (East Saint Louis area) we have some horrific case of some guy on meth killing a toddler, usually the child of whoever he's shacking up with for the moment, multiple times every year. Some drugs do predictably increase aggression and violence. In addition, there is an enormous amount of free care that is given out to overdoses and other complications of drug abuse.
I'm pretty certain that if you completely deregulate drugs, the experience is that there is an uptick in use but that it finds a new equilibrium point that is higher (but not nearly so high as many would have you believe). The predicted decrease in policing costs does occur, but there is increased medical costs. (And some less easy to quantify social costs in addition.)
I should try to find some hard data, but I recall reading this several times.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Lą, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 09:38 |
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I thought that the people who voted "yes" did it for the "simple pleasure" of trolling, but I fear it may not be the case.
I wasn't a fan of Slipknot, but I've been shocked to learn that their bassist died from an O.D. In 2010. Like if the deaths of Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Morrisson (and probably Brian Jones - maybe he drowned, I'm not sure), Sid Vicious, Darby Crash, Keith Moon, John Bonham and others weren't enough demonstrative about the perils of narcotics.
And if not dying of OD, you can "dream" of turning insane (Syd, Rory, where are you?) or having several diseases linked to these products.
I know that hard drugs don't enter the life of someone like thunder in a blue sky (again, last week, I saw some TV news showing children in the favelas sniffing glue - not to talk about Romanian orphans, and some French, Italian or German kids can suffer the same conditions of life)...
But when I hear about middle to upper-class French teenagers doing cocaine, their elder brothers remembering their trips on extasy or even middle-class, white-collar WASP Americain citizens enjoying crack... Do they really suffer from harsh social life conditions? Are they really mis- or uninformed about the threats of hard drugs?
And we still have the problems of alcoholism or the misuse of everyday medicine drugs...
I'm not even discussing ethics, moral values or whatever would be described as "philosophical/intellectual issues"... I'm just asking: "What for? What use? Why? Why so few serious?"
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 09:52 |
CPicard wrote:
I thought that the people who voted "yes" did it for the "simple pleasure" of trolling, but I fear it may not be the case.
I wasn't a fan of Slipknot, but I've been shocked to learn that their bassist died from an O.D. In 2010. Like if the deaths of Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Morrisson (and probably Brian Jones - maybe he drowned, I'm not sure), Sid Vicious, Darby Crash, Keith Moon, John Bonham and others weren't enough demonstrative about the perils of narcotics.
And if not dying of OD, you can "dream" of turning insane (Syd, Rory, where are you?) or having several diseases linked to these products.
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I wonder if the deaths of Cozy Powell, Eddie Cochran, Tommy Caldwell, Marc Bolan, Cliff Burton, Rich Mullins, and Bessie Smith are enough to demonstrate the perils of automobiles.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 09:55 |
Cars can be useful. They have a benefit / risk ration.
What is the benefit / risk ratio of PCP?
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 09:57 |
Negoba wrote:
Cars can be useful. They have a benefit / risk ration.
What is the benefit / risk ratio of PCP? |
Essentially zero. What's the benefit/risk ratio of skydiving?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:00 |
Negoba wrote:
Cars can be useful. They have a benefit / risk ration.
What is the benefit / risk ratio of PCP? |
People like it. I don't have the moral superiority to prohibit someone other than my children from using PCP. That's essentially my basis for voting yes in this poll.Just because something is probably a stupid idea doesn't mean it should be illegal.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:03 |
Negoba wrote:
Cars can be useful. They have a benefit / risk ration.
What is the benefit / risk ratio of PCP? |
The user exercizes his freedom to get enjoyment for a few minutes... It's his benefit, the one HE chose for himself. Yes, it's stupid but nobody did the choosing. Even today most people don't do drugs. Do you think lifting the ban will actually create a nation of zombies? It already is, for legal drugs.
The poor mother who is on drugs will at least maybe still have the boy's father to help her, since this guy will not be in prison as he is today.
Things don't have to have a benefit to society for existing. People will find their benefits and will decide. Unless god finally shows his face, I don't like nobody else to do the deciding for me.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:05 |
^^^Though, in reference to Pat's post, I might see a point in making Jersey Shore illegal... 
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:19 |
CPicard wrote:
I thought that the people who voted "yes" did it for the "simple pleasure" of trolling, but I fear it may not be the case.
I wasn't a fan of Slipknot, but I've been shocked to learn that their bassist died from an O.D. In 2010. Like if the deaths of Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Morrisson (and probably Brian Jones - maybe he drowned, I'm not sure), Sid Vicious, Darby Crash, Keith Moon, John Bonham and others weren't enough demonstrative about the perils of narcotics.
And if not dying of OD, you can "dream" of turning insane (Syd, Rory, where are you?) or having several diseases linked to these products.
I know that hard drugs don't enter the life of someone like thunder in a blue sky (again, last week, I saw some TV news showing children in the favelas sniffing glue - not to talk about Romanian orphans, and some French, Italian or German kids can suffer the same conditions of life)...
But when I hear about middle to upper-class French teenagers doing cocaine, their elder brothers remembering their trips on extasy or even middle-class, white-collar WASP Americain citizens enjoying crack... Do they really suffer from harsh social life conditions? Are they really mis- or uninformed about the threats of hard drugs?
And we still have the problems of alcoholism or the misuse of everyday medicine drugs...
I'm not even discussing ethics, moral values or whatever would be described as "philosophical/intellectual issues"... I'm just asking: "What for? What use? Why? Why so few serious?"
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Wow, I don't remember when I last read such a long serious post of you.  
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:24 |
Again, I'm not necessarily arguing for criminalization. Simply saying that that the car analogy is faulty. Skydiving is probably closer. Except on PCP or Meth you're more likely to hurt someone else than while skydiving. (Unless your aim is particularly bad)
There is the other point of - if we're going to allow people to destroy their lives, do we have to also pay for the mess they create on their way out?
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:27 |
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Yes of course if they infringe in the rights of others. That's obvious.
People will find ways to do as they want with their lives no matter what you are ready to "allow". But if it's done with something illegal, they're much more likely to hurt others.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:45 |
I'm sure Pat's point would be simply criminalize the hurting of others. No pre-emptive regulation. And that's a very valid point in this case. Don't criminalize the PCP, just the violent crime that people tend to do while on it.
Just thinking this through though...what about Fentanyl? A drug that is so powerfully rewarding that addiction is virtually guaranteed, and the chance of overdose so high, that simply trying it is likely to mean you'll be dead in less than two years? Is that something to have available at a store for general sale?
I see the consequences of hard drug use every day. Occasionally I see deaths. I also see deaths from cigarettes all the time, but that's not banned.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Should hard narcotics be legalized?
