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Queen By-Tor 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 13 2006
Location: Xanadu
Status: Offline
Points: 16111
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 Posted: July 25 2009 at 20:44 |
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YOUR MOM'S NOT YOUR MOM YOU ARE ADOPTED
How can we even classify prog in the first place when it's highly subjective when not used to classify the movement of music in the realm of 72-75? Bah to you.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 25 2009 at 20:52 |
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^ Exactly my point. Not everyone sees 'Prog' the same way by default. To question whether or not one band or album is 'proggier' than the next seems a little redundant on this basis.
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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 13 2006
Location: Xanadu
Status: Offline
Points: 16111
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Posted: July 25 2009 at 20:54 |
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Abacab is not not prog, it's just bordering Neo-Xover.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 25 2009 at 20:55 |
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. . . and 90125 is not 'not prog'; it's just bordering Xover as well.
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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 13 2006
Location: Xanadu
Status: Offline
Points: 16111
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Posted: July 25 2009 at 20:57 |
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'xactly.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: July 25 2009 at 21:51 |
 King By-Tor wrote:
YOUR MOM'S NOT YOUR MOM YOU ARE ADOPTED
How can we even classify prog in the first place when it's highly subjective when not used to classify the movement of music in the realm of 72-75? Bah to you.
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Easy. If I like it, it's prog. If I don't, well, not so much.
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progkidjoel
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 02 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 19643
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Posted: July 25 2009 at 22:12 |
p0mt3 wrote:
^ Exactly my point. Not everyone sees 'Prog' the same way by default. To question whether or not one band or album is 'proggier' than the next seems a little redundant on this basis.
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Well said!
An obvious one in my book's is Marillion's Kayleigh - More 80's pop than anything else.
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Tsevir Leirbag
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 03 2009
Location: Montréal
Status: Offline
Points: 8321
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Posted: July 25 2009 at 23:44 |
Toaster Mantis wrote:
Pardon? In the OP it looked like you didn't like it when prog rock bands tried to do other genres because it sounded too much like "ordinary music"... |
Anyways, that's not what I meant, I don't know why that's what you understood.
Snow Dog wrote:
ProGR72 wrote:
I'm sure ELP did'nt want to make prog when In the Hot Seat came out.
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In fact they did. But the record label neede a commercial hit to stave of going bust (it didn't work), so they pulled the strings on that album, even drafting co-wrters in. |
I didn't know that 
King By-Tor wrote:
YOUR MOM'S NOT YOUR MOM YOU ARE ADOPTED
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And I SWEAR, my mom's definitely my mom!
Edited by ProGR72 - July 26 2009 at 00:19
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Les mains, les pieds balancés
Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers,
Un marin mort,
Il dormira
- Paul Éluard
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Progosopher
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
Status: Offline
Points: 6472
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Posted: July 26 2009 at 10:49 |
Fieldofsorrow wrote:
Is it impossible for commerical sounding music to be good, though? Popular music has its place, and bands like Genesis and Yes have produced good quality music of such a nature, without compromising their musical integrity, in my opinion. But then again, that's just me. |
It's me as well. The tides of popularity are incredibly fickle. Let's not forget that Thick as a Brick was a #1 album in its day, and that Tull, Yes, ELP, Pink Floyd were major concert attractions as well as album sellers. Commercial music can be good, but not always is; good music can be commercial, but not always is. We get so caught up in the precise definitions of our categories that we overlook that fact that the vast majority of music lies somewhere in the expanses in between the extremes. 
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Fieldofsorrow
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 27 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 220
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Posted: July 26 2009 at 10:56 |
Progosopher wrote:
Fieldofsorrow wrote:
Is it impossible for commerical sounding music to be good, though? Popular music has its place, and bands like Genesis and Yes have produced good quality music of such a nature, without compromising their musical integrity, in my opinion. But then again, that's just me. |
It's me as well. The tides of popularity are incredibly fickle. Let's not forget that Thick as a Brick was a #1 album in its day, and that Tull, Yes, ELP, Pink Floyd were major concert attractions as well as album sellers. Commercial music can be good, but not always is; good music can be commercial, but not always is. We get so caught up in the precise definitions of our categories that we overlook that fact that the vast majority of music lies somewhere in the expanses in between the extremes. |
Yes, labelling serves me as a listener as nothing more than a point of reference, when searching for music that may be of interest. Where it in fact lies, between popularity or obscurity, matters very little to me. If a great record can sell millions of copies, it's simply an added bonus. 
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Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband
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A B Negative
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 02 2006
Location: Methil Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 1594
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Posted: July 26 2009 at 11:09 |
progkidjoel wrote:
An obvious one in my book's is Marillion's Kayleigh - More 80's pop than anything else. |
It doesn't sound much like Stock, Aitken and Waterman to me (surely the standard against which all 80s pop should be measured?).
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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 13 2006
Location: Xanadu
Status: Offline
Points: 16111
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Posted: July 26 2009 at 11:28 |
And let's not forget that one pop song on an album does not immediately ruin a good prog album completely, people. 
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13782
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Posted: July 26 2009 at 13:05 |
We seem to have had this debate many times, and it usually ends up being a general sl*gging off of Collins, with a few of us valiantly trying to defend him. Look, if it's good music, it's good music, end of. Why do we get so hung up on bands "selling out" by being commercial? It's a pointless, and factually dubious argument anyway. In their day, Yes, Floyd, Led Zep, The Who, Jethro Tull, and, on the continent with Gabriel, Genesis had massive commercial success. They all sold albums and live show tickets by the truckload. Does this mean they all, in some way, sold out? No, of course, it doesn't, it just meant that the music was very popular and fitted in with the more mass appeal of the time, which has since moved on somewhat. There really is nothing wrong with a good pop song you know. 
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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akin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 976
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Posted: July 26 2009 at 13:39 |
King By-Tor wrote:
And let's not forget that one pop song on an album does not immediately ruin a good prog album completely, people. |
I not only agree but sometimes I think it is a good thing to throw one or two pop songs in a long prog album. Most of the bands doesn´t have the songwriting skills necessary for doing only 30-minute prog epics and one or two good pop/rock songs placed between the epics give an special feel to the work. Of course it all depends on the level of quality of the pop songs and those pop songs thrown just for the sake of putting something commercial are a bad move.
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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 13 2006
Location: Xanadu
Status: Offline
Points: 16111
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Posted: July 26 2009 at 13:53 |
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Personally I felt that Fear Of A Blank Planet really needed a good 4-minute rocker.
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Conor Fynes
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 11 2009
Location: Vancouver, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3196
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Posted: July 26 2009 at 15:36 |
I actually LIKED Invisible Touch, but Genesis' self titled is one of the worst CDs I own.
'Illegal Alien' anyone?
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 26 2009 at 15:45 |
Conor Fynes wrote:
I actually LIKED Invisible Touch, but Genesis' self titled is one of the worst CDs I own.
'Illegal Alien' anyone? |
Let's face it; if it weren't for ''Invisible Touch", Genesis would not be as well-known by the masses as they are today. it saved their career, whether we like it or not. Same can be said of Rabin-era Yes stuff.
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Any Colour You Like
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 15 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12294
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Posted: July 26 2009 at 16:02 |
p0mt3 wrote:
Conor Fynes wrote:
I actually LIKED Invisible Touch, but Genesis' self titled is one of the worst CDs I own.
'Illegal Alien' anyone? |
Let's face it; if it weren't for ''Invisible Touch", Genesis would not be as well-known by the masses as they are today. it saved their career, whether we like it or not.
Same can be said of Rabin-era Yes stuff.
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I have always beleived that prog and pop are not mutually exclusive. Part of this is that there is no such thing as pure prog, just music with varying influences. It is just the scale of prog-influence that differs.
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The Pessimist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
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Posted: July 26 2009 at 16:03 |
No song is entirely prog I think. I can't think of one at the moment... OK, maybe Starless 
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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 26 2009 at 16:06 |
Any Colour You Like wrote:
p0mt3 wrote:
Conor Fynes wrote:
I actually LIKED Invisible Touch, but Genesis' self titled is one of the worst CDs I own.
'Illegal Alien' anyone? |
Let's face it; if it weren't for ''Invisible Touch", Genesis would not be as well-known by the masses as they are today. it saved their career, whether we like it or not.
Same can be said of Rabin-era Yes stuff.
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I have always beleived that prog and pop are not mutually exclusive. Part of this is that there is no such thing as pure prog, just music with varying influences. It is just the scale of prog-influence that differs.
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And that's also why I think any band that purposely sets out to be a "prog'' band, they end up not sounding all that great, because they miss the point entirely. (Dream Theater clones are among some of the best/worst examples of this, you agree?) You can't write music for the sheer 'progginess' of it; it has to come from the heart. Mkay, that's my little speech for the day.
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