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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 13 2006
Location: Xanadu
Status: Offline
Points: 16111
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 03:07 |
for someone usually so elitist and pretentious, you made a good, solid point there
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2459
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 03:07 |
pianoman wrote:
It's probobly very hard to make German sound melodic. German is one of the harshest languages. |
This is totally untrue, as anyone can tell you who's familiar with bands like Novalis or Can - not to mention great composers like Bach, Mozart and Schubert. German can be incredibly tender.
A recent post has this:
Years ago I asked a German friend this question and his answer was: "Because English is the langage of Rock and Roll, it is the language of Elvis and The Beatles."
I think there's much more truth in that. English is THE language of rock music, and it took a while for bands from non-English speaking countries to get confident enough to sing in their own language. Generally speaking, the tendency to "sing in your mother's tongue" only really got going with the "Do it yourself" spirit of punk and new wave.
You see the same kind of thing in Dutch. The big international bands from the Seventies (like Focus or Golden Earring) sang in English, Latin or even gibberish! In the late 1970s/early 1980s there was an avalanche of home-made rock artists (Raymond van het Groenewoud, Doe Maar etc. etc.) who produced one lively album after another... in Dutch. This was the start of a whole new thing. Of course they didn't sell outside Holland and Belgium!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 03:14 |
Petrovsk Mizinski wrote:
^But the language of Elvis was American |
...and most bands (even British ones) sing with an American accent.
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What?
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 03:17 |
King By-Tor wrote:
for someone usually so elitist and pretentious, you made a good, solid point there
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The smarter you get, the more I make sense.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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GaryB
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 451
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 08:36 |
I agree with several comments on this thread. I believe it was a commercial thing with a lot of European bands wanting to make it in England and from there shooting for the U.S. market. Let's face it, playing in a band was fun but it was also a job. If you didn't "make it", you had to go back to what ever you did before you became a musician.
As far as singing with an American accent, I can certainly recall the British Invasion when you would hear songs on the radio and then hear an interview and the singer had a very strong accent (Roger Daltry comes to mind). This was also true with American bands. Singers from the deep south or New England wouldn't have an accent on record but in a spoken interview it was a whole different story.
Having said all of that, I prefer little or NO vocals (Hurdy Gurdy, Automatic Fine Tuning, Bonfire, Gomorrha, Soft Machine, Flying Island, etc).
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AlbertMond
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 27 2008
Location: Namibia
Status: Offline
Points: 139
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 08:50 |
I've noticed this before. Indeed, it's not just Germany. Take a look at Greek rock.
Good example is Vangelis's "Aphrodite's Child," which was a Greek band, which moved to France, sang in English and actually became a hit there and throughout a lot of non-English speaking Europe. Of course, as far as I know, they never did incredibly well in the US (commercially of course).
The way language in rock works is quite odd.
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Promotion so blatant that it's sad:
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 09:18 |
I don't have a clue, why? It's weird but you're right.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2459
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 09:50 |
Not so weird, though. In the 18th century, Italian was THE language of Western music. Handel wrote Italian operas for Covent Garden in London; Haydn and Mozart wrote Italian operas for theatres in places like Prague or Vienna.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17527
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 10:03 |
Hi,
In the Latin block of languages, usually French or Spanish are the secondary languages. At least they were in the 60's and 70's ... but English may be it now.
In general, and I don't think it is intentional, the music business and recording business, is not stupid and they know that the majority of sales for anything are in the 2 english speaking countries ... where "arts and music" are still important, and always have been ... or at least they have had more freedom in the past 60 years than any of the others ... when you compare this to Germany, for example ... specially when it was split ...
How soon we forget that this just happened recently!
In the 50's and 60's Europe was being invaded by the "Voice of America" "Radio Free Europe" and many other short wave radio stations that blasted the communicst bloc left and right and started to get results towards the late 60's and eventually, these stations closed down when they were no longer needed after Berlin in the 80's ... these were all done in English ... and that tells you that a lot of people around Europe heard Elvis, Beatles and many others in English, and it would seem natural that any band coming up would think ... wouldn't it be cool to be there also ... and sing in English ...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 10:06 |
Rocktopus wrote:
I'm sure Tangerine Dream's Phaedra would never have charted in the UK, if the titles on their instrumentals were in German instead of English.
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We all know TD is instrumental, but with them was a change of label from the German OHR to the British Virgin Records.
BTW: Only mentioned them to make my point that not all the German bands were unpopular, but it's obvious that the change when they changed label was clear, they even reach the album charts.
Seems that the problem is not exclusively because of the language, but also how more easily they reach the UK or USA market as soon as they sign with a local label.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 27 2009 at 10:11
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 10:36 |
I think it's due to Beethoven. I mean the guy titled his symphonies in English - like, the Fifth, the Sixth , also known as the Pastoral . SO they probably figured of Ludevig did it , why not them.
That, or because Mandarin is pretty hard to learn, even if it means a better chance of reaching 1 billion chinese.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Alberto Muñoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 10:59 |
listen wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I guess because they wanted a chance to enter to the British/USA market, and because i believe most Germans also speak English.
Remember PFM; they signed with manticore Records, but they had to translate several albums.
Iván |
In the case of PFM, manticore isn't an Italian label but Brain and Ohr were German labels if I'm not mistaken. PFM's other label was Italian right? But I would imagine that even german labels would want their (German) bands to sing in english for the market, but from what I've heard German music was virtually unknown in Britain and also the US. On top of that, it is my understanding that most Krautrock and Acid Folk records from Germany were very rare, many not being pressed in huge numbers, reissued to cd until nearly if not more than two decades later, or reissued to cd or on vinyl until those cd reissues.
You have to read The crack in The Cosmic Egg and Krautrock sampler
Did the record companies just keep trying even though there was no return, was there enough return (subtracting the estimated sales they lost in Germany because they didn't sing in the native language), or was it for some other reason?
I don't think so, Tangerine Dream sales were the most and the almost sing nothing and they hit big in German and Britain.
The question can also be phrased like this:
From what music (mostly prog, ~70's) I've heard Italian bands sang mostly in Italian, Spanish mostly in Spanish, French mostly in French, Sweedish mostly in Sweedish and so on. But german bands sang mostly in English. Why didn't all the other bands sing in English too? Was Germany just obsessed with the UK audience (even though they were not getting anywhere)? If so, why that the situation?
I think that most German 60's teens want to break his inmediate WWII past and albeit with the many of the U.S. bases around the main German cities the explosion of rock and roll was a revelation to them, so the want to break the U.S. and U.K. market, you have to listen a band called The Monks that the played a totally freaked out disc and that band were integrated by U.S. soldiers.That record causes a furor in most German audiences.
Also check the treatment that Stockhausen do to Deuschtland Uber Allies.
Finally, anyone know what percent of Germans were fluent in English in the early 70's?
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Alberto Muñoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 11:05 |
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Alberto Muñoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 11:17 |
Mybe we should propose The Monks to proto prog
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AlbertMond
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 27 2008
Location: Namibia
Status: Offline
Points: 139
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 11:46 |
Alberto Muñoz wrote:
Mybe we should propose The Monks to proto prog |
Whoah. I hadn't even heard of these guys before. I second.
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Promotion so blatant that it's sad:
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 11:52 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Rocktopus wrote:
I'm sure Tangerine Dream's Phaedra would never have charted in the UK, if the titles on their instrumentals were in German instead of English.
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We all know TD is instrumental, but with them was a change of label from the German OHR to the British Virgin Records.
BTW: Only mentioned them to make my point that not all the German bands were unpopular, but it's obvious that the change when they changed label was clear, they even reach the album charts.
Seems that the problem is not exclusively because of the language, but also how more easily they reach the UK or USA market as soon as they sign with a local label.
Iván |
Exactly, and it's more to do with availability and distribution than any prejudice against non-local record labels (for example Deutsche Grammophon was a highly respected label). Most German labels simply weren't distributed in the UK in the 1970s and those that were were not promoted or publicised. I tried to get hold of a copy of Alpha Centauri back then and it was impossible. When TD signed to Virgin the publicity machine kicked in and, thanks to full-page adverts in the major music papers, everyone knew who they were. I remember one ad. featured giant cartoon caricatures of Froese, Franke and Baumann smashing through a wall (in the style of R. Crumb, but I think the cartoonist may have been Paul Sample).
Of course bands like Amon Duul II and Can were already known in the UK by then because they were signed to United Artists/Liberty (distributed in the UK by EMI), who already had established UK artists on their rosta (Hawkwind, Groundhogs, Bonzo's, etc.)
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What?
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70sMysterySong
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 23 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 8
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 12:00 |
During a vacation to Munich in 2000 I scouted record stores for German music. Of significance to this thread is that their local retail music chain (Wormland) stocked almost no German artists! The store was quite large (on the order of a Borders Books & Music in the states) but I was disappointed to see the same selection of CDs there as here. The best I could do was to find a few Die Toten Hosen discs (hardly prog!)
Even the first pub I went into was playing classic rock overhead. So there was certainly a market for songs sung in English among the Bavarians toward the beginning of the century.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 12:32 |
^ Sadly, my experience was pretty similar - I was in Munich in 1984 for three weeks and I came home with only one album, Spliff ~ Schwarz auf Weiss, (and they sing in German ).
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What?
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13634
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 13:42 |
debrewguy wrote:
I think it's due to Beethoven. I mean the guy titled his symphonies in English - like, the Fifth, the Sixth , also known as the Pastoral . SO they probably figured of Ludevig did it , why not them.
That, or because Mandarin is pretty hard to learn, even if it means a better chance of reaching 1 billion chinese.
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I wonder what Suppers Ready would sound like in Mandarin The reason for English lyrics is obviously commercial. Even at the simplest Eurovision Song Contest level, most of the lyrics (such as they are) are in English, except the French who are too proud of the mother tongue to acquiese.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 14:12 |
pianoman wrote:
It's probobly very hard to make German sound melodic. German is one of the harshest languages. |
Which is why Rammstein records in German. Although they tried to write English songs they felt that their subject material would go over better in German.They do have English & Spanish versions of some songs.
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