Learning guitar and music theory on my own

Trademark wrote: Ahh guitarists and their precious modes.  No one else wastes more than a few days on them except guitarists (and I unfortunately must include myself here)  who insist on spending years discovering how truly useless most of them really are.  Whether you learn music theory on your own or from a teacher will depend on how you (as an individual) learn best.  Some of us need a kick in the pants, or the pressure of an upcoming lesson to keep our noses to the grindstone, others are more self-motivated.  But keep in mind that the minute you learn how to play a G chord you've learned a piece of music theory.  When you figure out that G, C, & D go together really well, you've learned more theory.  When you figure out why the drummer clicks his sticks 4 times before you all start playing you've got a bit more.  The notion that you can "mess around and let your feelings guide you" is just a pile of crap.  What you actually do as you mess around is learn theory, whether you decide to call it that or not. I feel some obligation to insert here a proper description of what music theory really is, before someone goes off on "composing according to rules" etc.  Music theory has never been (apart from some serilaists of the 1950s and 1960s) a set of rules for what you can and can't do.  What music theory is, is a description of what composers have already done, and what was generally accepted to have "sounded good" to that particular generation of composers.  That's why it keeps changing. As an example (as well as an interesting story), during the Baroque Era (1600-1750) it was generally accepted that you should not write diminished fifths in music.  It's a very dissonant interval (the opening notes of "Black Sabbath" if I remember an example) and folks thought is sounded so bad they nick-named it "the devil in music".  Now Antonio Vivaldi, as a Baroque composer knew this and like other composers of his time avoided that interval, but in the original handwritten manuscript of the Gloria of his Mass in D major there happens to be one.  Did he really mean for it to be there, or was it a mistake?  Most editors who print the score for sale "correct" this note because it is the only diminished fifth in all of Vivaldi's 600+ concertos and 40 operas AND its in a mass where you wouldn't, as a priest, stick "the devil in music".  They look at the practice of the time and understand howe unlikely it is that Vivaldi would not have done that on purpose. No composer I have ever met thinks specifically about theory when writing music. It's not even discussed in formal composition lessons unless the student brings it up.   We use what we have learned in a subconscious way, or as Nero Wolfe puts it with "experience guided by intelligence".  If you want to learn to play the guitar, do it any way that works for you.  There are plenty of truly remarkable guitarists with horrible technique and little or no formal training.  But, if you want to learn about MUSIC, go to the local community college and take a couple of semesters of theory.  Under no circumstances should you trust a guitar teacher to teach you theory!!!!  They are, as a rule of thumb, the worst theorists in the known world.  It would be the equivalent of trying to get training as a gourmet chef from a McDonalds fry cook.    Learning music theory will change the way you play, change the way you write, and even change the way you listen to music, and that will help you get where you want to go.  Music will open up like a flower in front of your eyes. A flower?!....

Trademark wrote: Ahh guitarists and their precious modes.  No one else wastes more than a few days on them except guitarists (and I unfortunately must include myself here)  who insist on spending years discovering how truly useless most of them really are.  Whether you learn music theory on your own or from a teacher will depend on how you (as an individual) learn best.  Some of us need a kick in the pants, or the pressure of an upcoming lesson to keep our noses to the grindstone, others are more self-motivated.  But keep in mind that the minute you learn how to play a G chord you've learned a piece of music theory.  When you figure out that G, C, & D go together really well, you've learned more theory.  When you figure out why the drummer clicks his sticks 4 times before you all start playing you've got a bit more.  The notion that you can "mess around and let your feelings guide you" is just a pile of crap.  What you actually do as you mess around is learn theory, whether you decide to call it that or not. I feel some obligation to insert here a proper description of what music theory really is, before someone goes off on "composing according to rules" etc.  Music theory has never been (apart from some serilaists of the 1950s and 1960s) a set of rules for what you can and can't do.  What music theory is, is a description of what composers have already done, and what was generally accepted to have "sounded good" to that particular generation of composers.  That's why it keeps changing. As an example (as well as an interesting story), during the Baroque Era (1600-1750) it was generally accepted that you should not write diminished fifths in music.  It's a very dissonant interval (the opening notes of "Black Sabbath" if I remember an example) and folks thought is sounded so bad they nick-named it "the devil in music".  Now Antonio Vivaldi, as a Baroque composer knew this and like other composers of his time avoided that interval, but in the original handwritten manuscript of the Gloria of his Mass in D major there happens to be one.  Did he really mean for it to be there, or was it a mistake?  Most editors who print the score for sale "correct" this note because it is the only diminished fifth in all of Vivaldi's 600+ concertos and 40 operas AND its in a mass where you wouldn't, as a priest, stick "the devil in music".  They look at the practice of the time and understand howe unlikely it is that Vivaldi would not have done that on purpose. No composer I have ever met thinks specifically about theory when writing music. It's not even discussed in formal composition lessons unless the student brings it up.   We use what we have learned in a subconscious way, or as Nero Wolfe puts it with "experience guided by intelligence".  If you want to learn to play the guitar, do it any way that works for you.  There are plenty of truly remarkable guitarists with horrible technique and little or no formal training.  But, if you want to learn about MUSIC, go to the local community college and take a couple of semesters of theory.  Under no circumstances should you trust a guitar teacher to teach you theory!!!!  They are, as a rule of thumb, the worst theorists in the known world.  It would be the equivalent of trying to get training as a gourmet chef from a McDonalds fry cook.    Learning music theory will change the way you play, change the way you write, and even change the way you listen to music, and that will help you get where you want to go.  Music will open up like a flower in front of your eyes. A flower?!....

While I can agree with a what of lot you said in this post.
When I improvise, obviously I don't have the time to apply musical mathematics to a performance.
Sometimes I might hit a wrong note over a chord progression, but chances are the audience wont really care unless they're a musician, and indeed, I think it's the best approach to never consciously apply music theory when your compose music or improvise. I feel the whole point is that you learn what is it you need to know inside out backwards, so by the time you need to use it, you never consciously think about what you're doing and it just comes out.

"The notion that you can "mess around and let your feelings guide you" is just a pile of crap.  What you actually do as you mess around is learn theory, whether you decide to call it that or not."

I absolutely agree 100 per cent with those 2 lines.

"Ahh guitarists and their precious modes.  No one else wastes more than a few days on them except guitarists (and I unfortunately must include myself here)  who insist on spending years discovering how truly useless most of them really are. "

Maybe for you, a waste of time, but myself, this was the fasted and easiest way I learnt how to make the connection between chords and scales in each key and it helped my improvisation immensely.
I tried other methods and just couldn't do it as quickly any other way. Maybe other people had different experiences, I don't know, but It worked for me, and I don't think there is anything wrong with my approach and indeed, since it did work for me, I don't feel that I wasted a minute learning modes.

If you do you just buy more.

Edited by Trademark - March 06 2009 at 14:28

Two words: raw determination. If you want to learn an instrument, all it takes is time and effort. Start off with easy stuff, simply work your way through harder and harder things until you find your footing as a musician. Best advice I can give on that is to not be intimidatedby a piece of music to learn, just work it out bit by bit.

As for learning techniques, I teach myself stuff by ear (aside from the classical shizzle which I obviously read the music for). Personally I think by ear is the best way, because it also makes you better at playing in bands etc...

Off topic slightly: Harry, you can play Buckethead??? My God Put some solos on youtube man Can you play the solo to Serenity Painted Death?

I've been trying (on and off over the last 20-odd years!!!!!) to learn something of music theory. I've been steered towards...

 

http://www.8notes.com/theory/

 

Hope it helps.

 

Trapper John McIntyre

 

 

^What random first post by a newbie, lmao.

Beets me.

Hey, I told you guys. I'm weird when it comes to spelling. I mispell sh*t all the time, but for some reason it only bothers me when someone else does it.