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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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Posted: August 31 2008 at 11:19 |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: August 31 2008 at 11:22 |
true.. but that is why they give us the big hats and the corner offices with the big windows and the hot secretaries. That is what we do here
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: August 31 2008 at 19:57 |
Let's not be messin' w/ Procol. They're a total proto-prog band, and I mean no disrespect to them in saying that. Those first three albums absolutely paved the way for all that came after. Can't say the same for them Moodies, however.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: August 31 2008 at 20:24 |
jammun wrote:
Let's not be messin' w/ Procol. They're a total proto-prog band, and I mean no disrespect to them in saying that. Those first three albums absolutely paved the way for all that came after. Can't say the same for them Moodies, however. |
Exactly, whjat other band was rekleasing a song like A Whiter Shade of Pale that was incorpoirating clear Symphonic elements into their music with a Baroque organ solo?
They were ahead of most bands in those years and pioneered the Proto Prog genre, while the Moody Blues was still adding a Symphony Orchestra to a pop structure and Pink Floyd was doing pure Psyche.
If Proto Prog must be defined by one band, it is Procul Harum, the real link between Psyche and Prog.
Lets give Proto Prog the respect it deserves, it's not a Prog Related or a Prog Pop genre,. it's Progressive Rock in embryonary state, without PP God knows what would had come later..
Iván
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: August 31 2008 at 20:47 |
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What?
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: August 31 2008 at 21:03 |
sh*t... my PM box must have been full....I'll get on brushing up on them this week.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Mellotron Storm
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 13684
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Posted: August 31 2008 at 22:37 |
I must admit when i reviewed "Days Of Future Passed" the other day i was surprised The Moody Blues were in the Crossover genre.I thought they were proto-prog. With any band though their whole discography has to be considered not just a couple of albums right? A lot of bands could have some albums in one genre and some others in another.
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: August 31 2008 at 22:39 |
personally I think Procol Harum fits best in proto-prog. maybe early moodies fits there to, but I can see the moodies in cross-over aswell. leave it as it is, is my opinion.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Hawkwise
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 31 2008
Location: Ontairo
Status: Offline
Points: 4119
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Posted: August 31 2008 at 22:53 |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: August 31 2008 at 22:53 |
sinkadotentree wrote:
I must admit when i reviewed "Days Of Future Passed" the other day i was surprised The Moody Blues were in the Crossover genre.I thought they were proto-prog. With any band though their whole discography has to be considered not just a couple of albums right? A lot of bands could have some albums in one genre and some others in another. |
well... DoFP was only one, the first, of what is called the 'classic 7'. Had they stopped after the first.. sure.. they would have fit in proto.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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Posted: September 01 2008 at 02:37 |
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The Whistler
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 30 2006
Location: LA, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 7113
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Posted: September 01 2008 at 03:33 |
Wow Rico, it actually DID turn into a big ole debate. Fancy that. I'm still not entirely sure where to come down on all this; the various arguments seem pretty sound. I mean, to a certain extent, I think that they should be "equals." But Maybe Procol was getting less classically proggy after '69. Although, then and therefore, what should they be considered? Did they take up the Doors' mantle and become Gothic art blues or something?
Therefore, were a move to be suggested, I'd say Eclectic above Crossover; the Procol Harum that I know (and am currently listening to ("Simple Sister," Broken Barricades)), is less an art-pop fusion, and more an art-blues fusion.
Edited by The Whistler - September 01 2008 at 06:14
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"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 01 2008 at 08:11 |
But again Whistler...Why move the band that defines Proto Prog from Proto Prog?
It's like moving Jethro Tull out of Folk Prog. We know they involve more than Folk in heir albums, that they crossed several genres, but they defined the term Prog Folk which was created fot them...so why moving them out?????
The same goes for Procol Harum.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 01 2008 at 08:46
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: September 01 2008 at 08:35 |
The Whistler wrote:
Wow Rico, it actually DID turn into a big ole debate. Fancy that. I'm still not entirely sure where to come down on all this; the various arguments seem pretty sound. I mean, to a certain extent, I think that they should be "equals." But Maybe Procol was getting less classically proggy after '69. Although, then and therefore, what should they be considered? Did they take up the Doors' mantle and become Gothic art blues or something?
Therefore, were a move to be suggested, I'd say Eclectic above Crossover; the Procol Harum that I know (and am currently listening to ("Simple Sister," Broken Barricades)), is less an art-pop fusion, and more an art-blues fusion. |
yes... did a listen to their stuff last night... my first choice would be eclectic...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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earlyprog
Special Collaborator
Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams
Joined: March 05 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 2137
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 04:06 |
Procol Harum clearly made contributions to the development of prog in the late 60's but only sporadically and almost incidentally. They were partly prog (by coincidence) and partly non-prog and in that manner inconsistent (like other proto-prog bands). The could have chosen the prog route but noone did until prog conceptualised with "In the Court of the Crimson King". On the contrary, PH seemed to move further away from their prog elements. Hence, they remain a fine representative of proto prog.
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 12:34 |
Oh Whistler, how could we ever doubted you ?
Well, after saying that I have some other things to say mostly related to Ivan's and Febus' posts.
I know PH much less than MB so my only comment here is that I find "A whiter shade of pale" as a very nice and melodic pop song. I don't see it that symphonic.
As to the Moody blues - I think we forgot how influencial at the time was "Days of future passed". It may have dated, sure it is not as progressive as The nice or The soft machine but this is the album that realy started the prog movement by being a concept album, by using an orchestra, by mixing poems with the music and by creating an LP that is much nore than it's seperate pieces. I think that In the court of the crimson king ows a lot to this album (and most of us agree that ITCOTCK is where real prog started).
I must add that MB did 4 albums from 67 to 69 (DOFP, ISOTLC, ITTOAD & TMCCC) so Ivan was wrong about doing most of their work in the 70's (and that rarely happens). More than that they kept progressing and made a very different album in 1970 (Every good boy deserves favour) so for me they are a very true prog band even if they were quite popular for a while (PF, Yes, ELP and Genesis were all more popular).
I think they are one of the true proto prog bands. However, I never realy understand what is crossover prog.
I agree BJH are not very far away from MB and never understood why they are clasified as eclectik (they are nothing like KC or VDGG that for me are THE eclectik bands).
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omri
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 12:47 |
Ricochet wrote:
*waiting, with curiousity, for serious, perhaps even grown-up, answers* ()
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I really hate to disappoint you, but my answer is "I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you."
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Elliot Miller
Forum Newbie
Joined: June 01 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 12
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Posted: September 02 2008 at 23:40 |
I have been visiting this Web site for several years but this is only my second post. I couldn't resist jumping in because the topics are near and dear to my heart. I'm 57 years old (gulp), started listening to rock and roll when I was nine, got turned on to Dylan in '65 and saw him live that year with The Band backing, followed the development of folk rock from its inception, and then followed the development of psychedelic-progressive rock from its inception. After some initial stirrings in ’65 (e.g., The Yardbirds) and some deep rumblings in ’66 (e.g., Revolver) in ‘67 the creative lid was blown off of the music scene. So much was happening that you no longer had a frame of reference and anything seemed possible. Creative experimentation was going on everywhere you looked and not just in what would later be called prog. Just a few examples: The Doors, The Beach Boys (Smile could have been the beginning of prog if Brian Wilson hadn't been sabotaged by both Mike Love and his own unstable mind, and even the 2004 version of Smile still sounds far ahead of its time), Van Dyke Parks (Song Cycle), The Beatles (Sgt. Pepper, of course), Love (Forever Changes), The Mothers of Invention, The Velvet Underground, The Who (the mini-opera "A Quick One While Hel's Away”), and I could go on and on. At the time, Procol Harum, the Moody Blues, The Nice, Pink Floyd, and Traffic were not "proto-prog," they were PROG. I even coined the term "progressive rock" to describe what I was hearing (not to suggest that I started the use of the term, but great minds think alike!). I totally agree, however, that In the Court of the Crimson King was the beginning of progressive rock in the fully developed sense of the term that came to define the genre in the '70s. So looking back on it all, I would say yes, you people by and large are very astute in your choice of terms for these genres and subgenres. The Moody Blues and Procol Harum were very progressive for their time, and without them and the other bands the prog that we know and love would never have developed (e.g., it seems that PH's “In Held Twas in I" paved the way for the theatrical prog that Genesis explored so effectively), but they are rightly classified as "proto-prog" because they do not include all the features of the classic prog of the ‘70s, and its interesting that they never felt compelled to emulate what the other bands were doing at that time. They remained true to their own muses and continued to be originals, even though they were overshadowed by the weightier music that was then being created. However, I would make one additional and final point. "Proto" doe not necessarily mean "inferior." For me there is a magic to The Moody Blues music (especially heard in the Classic 7 albums) that all of the progressive rock that would follow could never quite touch, no matter how superior the musicianship and more complex the music would be, although Genesis and The Strawbs came very close.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 03 2008 at 02:57 |
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What?
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
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Posted: September 03 2008 at 10:28 |
O.K. Whistler, you have 2 long and serious posts that claims MB to be proto prog by 2 old fellows (Eliot Miller is a bit older than me). I think you got some very good answers to the question why MB are proto prog band.
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omri
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