A team for Proto Prog is impossible? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: August 05 2007 at 12:42

Sean Trane wrote:

2- BTW, now that The Nice has been taken out of PP, Procol Harum looks ridiculous in there>> I can think of fewer bands that could fit better Art Rock than them..

We took The Nice being that their similarities with ELP are so obvious and their sound was so Symphonic that it was incredible to keep them as it was ridiculous to keep Refugee (The nice with Moraz instead of Emerson) or Hayward & Lodge in Proto Prog, because they were The Moody Blues for all facts.

Now Procol Harum has a clear Proto Prog nature and Arthur Brown also because if we are honest, the only album that really had an impact on Prog was The Crazy World of Arthur Brown.

Sean Trane wrote:

3- Another thing is having The Who in there seems preposterous, since their whole "prog" era is 70's, outside a small mini-opera.

There I agree with you, Tommy except for Overture, Underture and Amazing Journey (Which have SOME relation)is only Rock and Pop, great Rock ad Pop, even outstanding, but not Prog.

Even Pete Townshend in "The Kids are Alright" says clearly somethjing like "When Pimball Wizard was recorded I was sure it was less a Rock than a Pop Opera".

On the other hand Quadrophenia is related to Prog, that's for sure, maybe not enough for an addition, but now they are here, and having a long career in the 60's and 70's tgheir place is Prog Related not Proto Prog, but that's not our call.

The problem is that we are giving priority to 3 or maybe 4 songs than to a full serious album like Quadrophenia because we want to see influence where there's a great iconic Rock band that received influence from the early 70's Prog, in other words more a Prog influenced than a directly Prog influential band.

My two cents.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 05 2007 at 12:59

ClemofNazareth View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk Researcher

Joined: August 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4659

Posted: August 05 2007 at 15:05

Easy Livin wrote:

...there may well be no musical link between the bands who are classified as proto-prog. Bands assigned to a prog sub-genre will of course always be linked musically in some way.

Just for fun Bob!

"Peace is the only battle worth waging."

Albert Camus

Easy Livin View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585

Posted: August 05 2007 at 15:30

Brilliant!

ClemofNazareth View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk Researcher

Joined: August 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4659

Posted: August 05 2007 at 22:23

I suspect Pan & Regaliz and Maquina are related somehow, probably through Maquina's bass player. He also played with Chick Corea and I think Al Di Meola, so those two bands should have some circutuous route to the rest of proto-prog, probably through someone like Steve Howe or maybe Tony Levin. Nirvana (UK) connects somewhere but I got tired of looking. Sweet**ter is pretty self-contained but their drummer got around a little. I can't find any other bands he was officially in though. I have no clue about Salamander.

"Peace is the only battle worth waging."

Albert Camus

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: August 05 2007 at 23:03

ClemofNazareth wrote:

I suspect Pan & Regaliz and Maquina are related somehow, probably through Maquina's bass player. He also played with Chick Corea and I think Al Di Meola, so those two bands should have some circutuous route to the rest of proto-prog, probably through someone like Steve Howe or maybe Tony Levin. Nirvana (UK) connects somewhere but I got tired of looking. Sweet**ter is pretty self-contained but their drummer got around a little. I can't find any other bands he was officially in though. I have no clue about Salamander.

Sweetwater was pretty self contained because their career was stopped when after ipening Woodstock (They were the first band, there was a soloist before, I believe it was Rabi Shankar) their vocalist Nansi Nevins had a car accident and the emergency dopctor performed a tracheotomy that destroyed her vocal chords, so the band went down without her.

Some of them died, others returned to classical music (August Burns went to Germany to study Orchestra Conducting and also died in an elevator accident) and only Harvey gert (Guitar and Backing vovcals) has a previous histiory as songwritter for The Byrds.

The drummer Alan Malarowitz as you mention was starting a promissing career but he died very young in a car accident.

Very unlucky band.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 05 2007 at 23:06

Sean Trane View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20513

Posted: August 06 2007 at 04:28

ClemofNazareth wrote:

I suspect Pan & Regaliz and Maquina are related somehow, probably through Maquina's bass player. He also played with Chick Corea and I think Al Di Meola, so those two bands should have some circutuous route to the rest of proto-prog, probably through someone like Steve Howe or maybe Tony Levin.

Both these Spanish (actually Catalan) groups are post 70 releases but in terms of Spanish prog history, I thought it would be better to have them in proto-prog, because their sound is very much 60's. P&R sounds between Tull's Time Was and Stand Up ans Maquina! is hard psych, but wouldn't fit well in psych/space!

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Tetragon

Forum Groupie

Joined: August 02 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 75

Posted: August 09 2007 at 06:41

All this babbling for nothing.If you cast your body back to when prog first surfaced you will know it was caled the Progressive movement, nothing more nothing less, there was no proto,No Symphonic, Art rock etc word used it's just something listerners & press alike have created to try catergorize certain bands.They may have found this entertaining but it's near on impossible to correctly catergorize.

If you must just think of Proto as Proto(type) progressive.& forget about the Rock bit cos it was'nt.

Tony R

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11985

Posted: August 09 2007 at 06:54

Tetragon wrote:

All this babbling for nothing.If you cast your body back to when prog first surfaced you will know it was caled the Progressive movement, nothing more nothing less, there was no proto,No Symphonic, Art rock etc word used it's just something listerners & press alike have created to try catergorize certain bands.They may have found this entertaining but it's near on impossible to correctly catergorize.

If you must just think of Proto as Proto(type) progressive.& forget about the Rock bit cos it was'nt.

So we avoid categories/genres etc and just call it Progressive music, do we? So if one is looking for bands similar to Yes, what might one do?

Why not just call it all music and file from A to Z. Should make things easier shouldnt it? Wonder why libraries bother having sections like "biography", "crime", "thrillers", "history" etc? Why not just shelve them A To Z by author?
It's wrong to over-analyse the genres but they have some use as a general reference aid. Smile

Tetragon

Forum Groupie

Joined: August 02 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 75

Posted: August 09 2007 at 07:19

You got an issue of Pink Floyd 'UMMAGUMMA' on vinyl? Look on the back where the catalogue number is! It says filed under popular music.Seemed irellavent in those days...Prog did'nt last too long so why bother spliting the different so called styles up?

But that's another argument for another time...

Edited by Tetragon - August 09 2007 at 07:19

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: August 09 2007 at 11:22

You call it babbling, we call it DISCUSSING a theme that is a passion for most of yusand....this is a DISCUSSION FORUM.

No, Tetragon it was not called Progressive Movement, it was called, ASrt Roc, Symphonic Rock, Progressive Music and later Progressive Rock.

But you can't compare the reality of the early 80's with the actual reality, Prog has grown and became diverse, in the first years lets say 90% of Prog was sym´phonic or had a Symphonic element,. there were a couple of Folk bamds with Tull at tyhe headwho was not purely Folk but a blend opf Symphonic and Folk or reneissance, and some Space bands, ecven Fusion was seen as an appendix of the genre.

Now the reality is different, since the late 70's when Neo Prog appeared as a different approach, things changed radically, Prog is vast todaym, there's no relation between lets say Henry Cow, Pink Floyd, Los Jaivas, Jethro Tull, Marillion and Queen, so sub-genres are required.

And sub-genres are not our invention,. theyu are used in each and every site, written text and film material, so learn to live with them , they are here to stay and there's nothing you can do.

Tetragon wrote:

If you must just think of Proto as Proto(type) progressive.& forget about the Rock bit cos it was'nt.

No, we talk about PROTO as in the real definition:

A combining form prefix signifying first, primary,
      primordial; as, protomartyr, the first martyr;
      protomorphic, primitive in form; protoplast, a primordial
      organism; prototype, protozoan.

The first form of music that conmtained the essential elements of what would later be known as Progressive Rock.

A Prototype is merely an experiment to see if a product can be merchandized, that may or may never see the market if it's not profitable.

Proto Prog was a defined genre with it's own characteristics and all the potential to become Prog, a recently born genre that could not be sto´ppede, no matter what the musical indyustry or anybody would want to do..

Tetragon wrote:

You got

But that's another argument for another time...

[QUOTE]

Well, under popular music we can group Michhael Jackson, Madonna, MC Hammer,. Eminem, Pink Floyd etc.....Don't you beliieve it's a little bit empty to call Art Zoyd Popular music and even contradictory with reality?

Now Prog didn't lasted so long???

Hey pal Anglagard, Par Lindh, Magenta, Dream Theater, Glass Hammer, Magrathea, Steve Hackett, The Mars Volta, etc etc all exist and all are from the 80's, 90's or 2000's, so Prog is not dead, as a fact today is healthier than ever.

Every day we receive mails froim hundreeds if not thousands of new bands asking for their inclusion, bands about who obviously you don't have the slightest idea if you say Prog is dead.

Please...STOP BABBLING.

Iván

thellama73 View Drop Down

Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368

Posted: August 09 2007 at 17:34

He may be in Peru, but his English is still better than yours. ^

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: August 09 2007 at 18:09

Tetragon wrote:

Bollox simple as that. It was called the progressive movement & you know it was.

I know it was not exclusively, because obviously I read and I dedicated decades to Progressive Rock, something you obviouly won't understand because you express later in this post say that reading is crap.

I won't even waste my time making quotes for you, you're not worth the effort.

What you babling on about new bands for.I'm talking the early eprog in which this DISCUSION is all about.Who cares about crap that came after the first half of the '70's That's not prog it's crap.

Says who?

How many articles have your wrirtten? What's your area of expertise? How many reviews and biographies have you written? Who are you? and mot important, Why should we care about what you say if you dare to say that what we listen is crap?

I dare to use my full name and not hide behind a nick to be rude and offensive in a civilized forum for people who like Prog of the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and 2000's.

If you believe Anglagard, Par Lindh Project, Echolyn, T-Tauri, Magrathea, Magenta, Karda estra, After Crying, etc are crap, your knowledge about Prog is inferior to what your language and maners seem to indicate.

What do you know anyway your in Peru,how can you know about what happend over in this country apart from rubbish you obviously read?

Oops I forgot you believe we're are indians with bows, arrows and feathers that can't read, probably you believe we have to take a canoe to go to the next village, and use smoke signals to get the news about the bands, sad little pedant you're making a fool of youtself.

Let me tell you Tetragon, in this forum you can find people from all the world who obviously have forgotten this morning more about Prog and maners than what you will learn in your whole life with that attitude.

While you believe you are the center of the world because you were born in England, we don't care for the nation or year in which an album was released, we care for music come from where it comes.

It's a shame for the people of your country to have insignificant arrogants with delirium of greatness like you.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 09 2007 at 18:14