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#1floydfan 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 21 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 153
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 Posted: July 20 2007 at 12:50 |
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it realy depends on the band some bands are just terrible live... but will sound very good in the studio
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Dim
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
Status: Offline
Points: 6890
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 13:13 |
Well I have only been to two or three concerts none of them prog, so I cant help you out there.
But for me, Yessongs is my favirote piece of music I have ever listened to, so I may have to disagree.
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Floydian42
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 13 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 846
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 13:34 |
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*Sigh* IDK, I love live stuff. Too me there about equal, if you have a good live performer. I like seeing the songs go interesting places, other then how it is in the recording. I also love improv a great deal more live, it just impresses me and keeps you listening. And I also like seeing the artists have fun and seeing the crowd get into the music and show and whatnot. (Plus drunks are always fun to watch.)
Although, on albums it's the artistry. Listening to the way the artists intended the music to go. The perfect version. (Perfect, not to be confused with preferred.)
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 14:46 |
I'm a big fan of live music, although as I get older I tend to avoid the really big shows - fortunately most of the bands I like tend to perform in small venues anyway. Up to a 2 - 3,000 seater theatre is fine, but that's as far as it goes. I saw Genesis, Yes and Floyd (among others prog and non prog) in 10,000 seater plus venues in the 1970s and loved it, but these days I want a comfortable seat, decent sound, a good view and the bar and toilets in the same postal district as me. Call me Mr Fussy if you will!
As for live albums, it depends on the band; Yes, Floyd and Genesis are better heard on their studio albums, but they're worth owning by bands who improvise or radically reinterpret their material - King Crimson and Tull being the highest profile examples, but most RIO, Avant and Krautrock bands also really come to life on stage.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 17:24 |
 coleio wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
coleio wrote:
I don't know if it belongs in here as it applies to all genres, but I have a feeling I must be one of a very small selection of people that actually doesn't like live music as much as listening to it on the CD or whatever format you listen to.
What with all the crowd, and the constant talking by the vocalist or musicians, it ruins an atmosphere that the record would create. And rarely does it sound as good live as it does on the record.
Am I alone in the this perception or are there other people who feel this way?
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Hi coleio,
You're not alone here. Though I shouldn't say I don't like live music, I just prefer studio albums. I like live performance because it lets you see what the band can do in real life without sound recording technology. But I can't stand the show. Whenever they start smoke and fire on stage I bail out. For that reason I don't go to concerts (the last one I saw was Queen in 1980, with Mercury riding the Superman) and rarely watch such dance-and-sing parties like Aerosmith on MTV (and if I do, it's out of curiosity, there's no musical merit in it anyway). To me a studio recording is what the band' s musical thought and intellect is in its polished, refined form, not just the mastery of their musicianship on stage. |
You've articulated my thoughts perfectly, I was trying to think of how to put it and you've done it for me haha
It's good to know I'm not alone in feeling that way though, and I do agree, I don't really dislike live performances as such, because some of them were entertaining and interesting (Muse and Dream Theater being 2 of them).
But yeah, you desrcibed my feelings brilliantly 
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Looks like I'm your only supporter so far...  On a minor note, as a rule, after a band releases a live album, they either go downhill artistically, or fall apart altogether. I can think of a few exceptions here (King Crimson is one of them) and, of course, I don't know lots of bands, but there are too many cases like that.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 17:49 |
IVNORD wrote:
Looks like I'm your only supporter so far... On a minor note, as a rule, after a band releases a live album, they either go downhill artistically, or fall apart altogether. I can think of a few exceptions here (King Crimson is one of them) and, of course, I don't know lots of bands, but there are too many cases like that. |
That's a nonsense.
Pink Floyd - Ummagumma (live) - to be followed by AHM, Meddle, DSOTM, WYWH, Animals, The Wall, The Final Cut
Genesis - Genesis Live - to be followed by SEBTP, Lamb, Wind and Wuthering and Trick of the Tail
Yes - Yessongs (live) - to be followed by Tales From Topographic Oceans, Relayer and Going For The One
Hawkwind - Space Ritual (live) - to be followed by Hall of the Mountain Grill, Warrior on the Edge of Time, Astounding Sounds, Amazing Music and Quark, Strangeness and Charm
Marillion - Reel to Reel (live) - to be followed by Misplaced Childhood and Clutching at Straws
Marillion - Theiving Magpie (live) - to be followed by Seasons End, Holidays, Brave and Afraid of Sunlight
Porcupine Tree - Coma Divine (live) - to be followed by Stupid Dream, Lightbulb Sun and In Absentia
Porcupine Tree - Warszawa (live) - to be followed by Deadwing and FOABP
...I'll stop now because my fingers hurt.
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What?
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 18:01 |
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I havnt been to many concerts, but I saw Isis a couple months back and they were much better live than on CD, just so much more raw energy than the studio album conveyed. The only downside was that they played the entire album in track order with only a couple of older songs played for the encore, kind of a waste if you ask me. I also saw White Willow, Strangefish, Pendragon, Pure Reason Revolution and The Flower Kings (amongst others) at last years Summers End festivel and all of them were as good or better live than on CD.
I guess I'm in full support for live performances then.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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queenlerxst
Forum Groupie
Joined: June 17 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 84
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 19:49 |
Life would be meaningless without live music. Just being in a room with a bunch of people who love the same obscure band that you do is really amazing and energizing. It might be more worthhile to see improvisational acts live than groups that attempt to reproduce their studio material note for note, but the latter is enjoyable in its own way. The first time I saw Behold..the Arctopus live it blew me away to see the band pulling off their intricate arrangements in real time.
I don't mind hearing the occasional mistakes from musicians because it just shows that they're human.
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Pseud0
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 31 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 415
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 21:05 |
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well speaking of genesis, I've seen all three shows of the musical box (foxtrot,selling england and lamb) and if its any indication, genesis were amazing live back in the day
those were some of my favorite shows i've been to
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coleio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 272
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 21:15 |
God now I am confused, as I always go to concerts to see recreations of studio material, and if it isn't followed and done perfectly, then that annoys me. But after hearing all these comments about your live experiences, I'm now thinking... maybe I've missed the point of live music
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Eat heartily at breakfast, for tonight, we dine in Hell!!
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 22:27 |
darqdean wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Looks like I'm your only supporter so far... On a minor note, as a rule, after a band releases a live album, they either go downhill artistically, or fall apart altogether. I can think of a few exceptions here (King Crimson is one of them) and, of course, I don't know lots of bands, but there are too many cases like that. |
That's a nonsense.
Pink Floyd - Ummagumma (live) - to be followed by AHM, Meddle, DSOTM, WYWH, Animals, The Wall, The Final Cut
Genesis - Genesis Live - to be followed by SEBTP, Lamb, Wind and Wuthering and Trick of the Tail
Yes - Yessongs (live) - to be followed by Tales From Topographic Oceans, Relayer and Going For The One
Hawkwind - Space Ritual (live) - to be followed by Hall of the Mountain Grill, Warrior on the Edge of Time, Astounding Sounds, Amazing Music and Quark, Strangeness and Charm
Marillion - Reel to Reel (live) - to be followed by Misplaced Childhood and Clutching at Straws
Marillion - Theiving Magpie (live) - to be followed by Seasons End, Holidays, Brave and Afraid of Sunlight
Porcupine Tree - Coma Divine (live) - to be followed by Stupid Dream, Lightbulb Sun and In Absentia
Porcupine Tree - Warszawa (live) - to be followed by Deadwing and FOABP
...I'll stop now because my fingers hurt. |
Pink Floyd’s heavy reliance on sound engineering instead of sound musicianship has had little appeal for me. 30-some years ago, I did like Dark Side for a while, but I was young and inexperienced then. Their near-shamanistic approach to music (you know that pull-the-string-and-let-it-rip style) eventually bored me to death. So I can’t agree with you that they were so great after Ummagumma (which I haven’t even heard) since they were never great in the first place. They were commercially successful but that’s a different story. For the record, I have Dark Side and The Wall in my collection, but I bought them for my sons – the latter because they liked the “teacher leave the kids alone” line on the radio (what a crap!), and the former to show them that there were slightly better times in the house of Pink Floyd. My kids were both young then, they rarely listen to it now, if at all.
Genesis, although better musicians than Pink Floyd, don’t really top my list of bands either. I have all their albums up to Seconds Out and I can’t understand why people are so ecstatic about them. Most of their production is pretty much commercial stuff, plain and boring. Again, commercial success doesn’t constitute greatness. So as with Pink Floyd, you can’t really say they became better since they hadn’t been good.
You got me with Yes. I like both Tales From Topographic Oceans and Relayer. But to argue my point, both those albums are similar in style to Close to The Edge and are hardly any better ( Going For The One is not even close, a definite flop). Besides, I’ve said “as a rule” and this happened to be an exception.
In case of Marillion and Porcupine Tree I have to plead ignorance. I’ve heard a few tracks of Marillion, didn’t like them, and can’t say anything here, although the fact that they have been very productive churning 3-4 albums a year makes them suspect as to their quality. With Porcupine Tree, a few years ago I succumbed to good reviews and bought 3 or 4 of their records, most of them highly praised (In Absentia and Deadwing among them). Sorry to disappoint you, they are nonsense.
I can make up a list of groups who satisfy the criteria, but it will be too long, much longer than for those who don’t. Hence “as a rule” and “exception.”
And go see a doctor with your fingers.
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Dim
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
Status: Offline
Points: 6890
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 22:57 |
^ Okay the bands you like put out bad albums after their live albums...
And the highly praised bands you dont like make highly praised albums afterwards
Hmm... sounds like someone dosent want to be beat.
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1800iareyay
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2492
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 23:03 |
coleio wrote:
God now I am confused, as I always go to concerts to see recreations of studio material, and if it isn't followed and done perfectly, then that annoys me.
But after hearing all these comments about your live experiences, I'm now thinking... maybe I've missed the point of live music
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Some bands can do that and be great (The Who and Rush come to my mind). However, if you don't change the structures you have to fill them with much more energy or the band will not impress. Rush and The Who are masters at this.
King Crimson are the most progressive live band. Period. Listen to Great Deceiver. Each Cd has a similar tracklist but the versions all sound radically different from one another
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Arsillus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 26 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7374
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 23:09 |
Concerts are the best. I love getting out there with a bunch of other people to enjoy music. It's fun to laugh at the crazies and get excited about the band and simultaneously gripe about how long you've been standing and how hot it might be. I really like it when bands play songs that aren't exactly the way it is on the album. Most of the time that's the way it is, but it's way cool when things are changed up a bit. It's all about the experience...and the bleeding ears the next morning.  To me, concerts are more than just the music. It's about the show, the excitement building up, hanging out with your friends- the whole experience. The sound may be raw and a little unbalanced, but who cares? I just like to have a good time and celebrate music.
Edited by Arsillus - July 20 2007 at 23:12
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 21 2007 at 08:27 |
IVNORD wrote:
darqdean wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
::snip:: On a minor note, as a rule, after a band releases a live album, they either go downhill artistically, or fall apart altogether. ::snip:: |
That's a nonsense.
::snip:: |
::snip::
I can make up a list of groups who satisfy the criteria, but it will be too long, much longer than for those who don’t. Hence “as a rule” and “exception.”
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If you don't rate their efforts prior to releasing a live album either then your counter argument is void. I will accept the adage that one or two exceptions may prove a rule, but when the "exceptions" out-weigh "the rule" then the rule is probably in error. You can possibly say that some bands go down hill after releasing a live album, but you cannot make such a generalisation without justification.
You could also make the observation that in the dying throws of any band, (e.g The Nice), they will release a live album to salvage something - or even release it postumously as an epitath. But in general when a band releases a mid-career live album it often just a stop-gap to please the fans and nothing more.
Edited by darqdean - July 21 2007 at 08:28
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What?
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ProgBagel
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2819
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Posted: July 21 2007 at 11:33 |
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Agree whole'heartedly.
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Moatilliatta
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 01 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3083
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Posted: July 21 2007 at 13:52 |
I, 99 times out of 100, would rather listen to a studio recording than a live recording. Live CDs are pretty much never on par with the production of studio records. In the studio, everything sounds the way it's supposed to and the band can mix the album a certain way or put extra effects or sounds or whatever into it. Live you have to be there to really appreciate it.
Not only that, but the band has to do something really cool to make it worth while (ie jamming, awesome lights and effects, gimmicks). Bands who just play their recorded music live are really boring to see/listen to.
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Time Signature
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 20 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 362
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Posted: July 21 2007 at 14:15 |
I don't know. I think watching the music actually being performed is very rewarding - especially in genres where the music is often complex, like prog. I often find that watching skilled musicians perform enhances the entire experience... and who knows, you might even learn some techniques from watching them.
The only case I can think of where I didn't gain anything other than a hedache and a feeling of shame at failing to understand the music was at a concert in contemporary classical music with a very high pitched soprano singing bits from Romantic era poetry. A great idea, but extremely painful for the unitiated.
However, when it comes to CDs I much prefer studio albums to live albums. They say live albums capture the energy better, but then I prefer actually being at the show. I do like live DVDs though. Watching Dream Theater and Rainbow live shows on DVDs gave me a whole new understanding of their music.
Edited by Time Signature - July 21 2007 at 18:17
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10266
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Posted: July 21 2007 at 14:42 |
Moatilliatta wrote:
I, 99 times out of 100, would rather listen to a studio recording than a live recording. Live CDs are pretty much never on par with the production of studio records. In the studio, everything sounds the way it's supposed to and the band can mix the album a certain way or put extra effects or sounds or whatever into it. Live you have to be there to really appreciate it.
Not only that, but the band has to do something really cool to make it worth while (ie jamming, awesome lights and effects, gimmicks). Bands who just play their recorded music live are really boring to see/listen to. |
Your second point is exactly why I a) prefer live music and b) only go to those bands who definitely NOT play their studio versions live.
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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proghairfunk
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 18 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 99
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Posted: July 21 2007 at 16:36 |
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Live music is awesome when bands create new parts and surprises that you don't see coming, almost to the point of jam bands. But oftentimes, I feel live CDs don't really capture the essence of being at a show. I highly recommend going to see bands live, but not necessarily buying live CDs. There are exceptions (best band you've never heard in your life, yessongs etc.) but just take one listen to Mars Volta's live album (the name escapes me) and you will lose all faith in live albums.
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