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E-Dub 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 24 2006
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 Posted: May 27 2006 at 08:48 |
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I actually liked Phil's solo stuff up until the 90's...with Face Value and Hello, I Must Be Going as my favorites.
As for dropping out after Selling England, I can't agree with that. I listen to "One For The Vines", "Behind The Lines", "Los Endos" (among others) and am in awe. It's obvious this topic was started out of resentment towards him because of Genesis.
E
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Teaflax
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 26 2005
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Points: 1225
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Posted: May 27 2006 at 10:38 |
 Logos wrote:
Anyone who has been into prog for years recognized the letters SEBTP
(especially if the topic is Genesis-related), whether it's SEBTP, SEbtP
or whatever, even SEBPT. It immediately springs to one's mind, without
a moments hesitation. You're obviously not a dumb man, so stop
pretending.
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No, seriously. I am that dumb in this case, and I do feel quite
ashamed for not catching it right away, but I'm just used to reading
acronyms that way. In all my years discussing music online, it's been
so consistently followed that I just lost the plot right there. Also,
as noted, since I couldn't imagine anyone cutting off his drumming
career that early, I went backwards from Duke in my head, but stopped
at Lamb and then went "huh?".
Sorry - I really didn't mean to be a snotty git (and I understand that that might be hard to believe, since I quite often do mean to be a snotty git - just not this time).
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Man With Hat
Collaborator
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team
Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
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Points: 166183
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Posted: May 27 2006 at 11:05 |
Masque wrote:
I believe Phil is "known" as a top drummer so I don`t understand the thread   |
I agree. Except that the thread does make sense to me. Alot of people take the fact that a poor (or pop in this case) can diminish the quality and/or skill of the musician. For me, Collins is/was/always will be one of the greatest drummers in prog and music in general.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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micky
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Posted: May 27 2006 at 11:34 |
maybe some drummers amoung us could compare and contrast his style with
other prog drummer 'greats'.... that might be a redeming facet of the
thread hahahha.
He was a great drummer and EXTREMELY well respected in the music world
at large. Correct me if I'm wrong... he's guested on many
albums/shows for other artists. It wasn't for his 'name' it
was for his talent...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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ProgRockerJDS
Forum Groupie
Joined: March 18 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 64
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Posted: May 27 2006 at 11:42 |
After Selling England?  Surely you don't mean that - The Lamb, Trick, and Wind & Wuthering go down as three of the greatest progressive albums ever recorded, IMO.
However, yes, I think that there should have been a drastic change. In my opinion, Phil was the primary influence on Tony and Mike to write simpler, more radio-friendly songs, and they would have continued in a more progressive direction if Phil had left or been replaced.
And I agree with whoever stated their opinion on "Dance Into The Light"...that album is the worst kind of musical assault on the ears.
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Ananth
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 27 2006
Location: India
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Points: 6
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Posted: May 27 2006 at 12:33 |
Hi, am kinda new to this forum, considering this is my first post!  This thread caught my eye as I was checking out the prog-archives homepage. Then I decided to join the forum... I play the drums myself.. and IMHO Phil has to be one of the best drummers I've heard! His musicmanship is what set him apart from the rest... His technique was good (maybe not Neil Peart or Gene Krupa/Buddy Rich levels, but good) and he had an uncanny knack of getting the chops that were just right for the song! A couple of thoughts: 1) It would be silly to consider Phil any lesser a drummer because of his pop songs. 2) I also completely disagree that his good drumming stopped at SEBTP (orSEbtP or sEbTp or whatever). Even his much reviled later albums had very good drumming... for eg "The Lady lies" etc have amazing subtle patterns. Even songs like "No reply at all" have very good drum work! Also, am not too sure Collins was the only factor for Genesis to deviate from prog. Actually, apart from Hackett, none of the members continued in Prog after that (yes, Gabriel included...) . Hacketts output has been prety varied, but all the others wandered towards non-prog music! AND Genesis would not have moved in any direction unless it's Grand Poobah Tony Banks wanted them to...
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I am, therefore I think...
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TOD KREMER
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Joined: March 30 2006
Location: United States
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Posted: May 27 2006 at 13:47 |
I did not start this thread out of resentment. He is in fact a top drummer IMO. It is just that he gets so disrespected in the PA that it sometimes seems that his drumming gets overlooked. I was really wondering if the pop stuff was not there to prejudice us or cloud our minds, would people feel better about praising his drumming. I assert that this is probably so.
I agree that post SEbtP (grammer hounds happy?), he still did great drum work with Genesis. Actually , IMO, ATTWT has some of his best work. I was just picking an arbitrary point in time for him to quit the business as a premise for this thread.
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Stand up to the blow that fate has struck upon you. Make the most of all you still have coming to you...
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Masque
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 01 2006
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Points: 808
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Posted: May 27 2006 at 19:56 |
TOD KREMER wrote:
I did not start this thread out of resentment. He is in fact a top drummer IMO. It is just that he gets so disrespected in the PA that it sometimes seems that his drumming gets overlooked. I was really wondering if the pop stuff was not there to prejudice us or cloud our minds, would people feel better about praising his drumming. I assert that this is probably so.
I agree that post Sept (grammer hounds happy?), he still did great drum work with Genesis. Actually , IMO, ATTWT has some of his best work. I was just picking an arbitrary point in time for him to quit the business as a premise for this thread. |
Phil Collins drum work always gets great respect in this forum I have found, and that's how it should be , The man is a Prog Titan. Never blame Phil for the pop blame the 80`s
Edited by Masque - May 27 2006 at 19:57
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sbrushfan
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Posted: May 28 2006 at 02:07 |
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Instead of blaming Phil OR the 80's, how about blaming the trio of Banks, Rutherford AND Collins? It all comes down to doing what you feel you need to do to stay relevant. Beyond that, I doubt they would've turned down the chance to make a ton of money. Methinks that they felt they needed to go in a simpler, more stripped-down direction. However, I think they still put out some good stuff (Man On The Corner, Man Of Our Times, Misunderstanding, Whodunnit?, etc.) and much of the stuff on We Can't Dance was, IMO, awesome.
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Some world views are spacious, and some are merely spaced...
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Duchess
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 15 2006
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Posted: May 28 2006 at 20:44 |
I think he is a great drummer who made a gigantic contribution to prog. Some think that Genesis' descent into pop and worse was Phil Collins fault but that is not my view. I think they merely followed the trends in music and that when Gabriel and Hackett left they didn't have the lyrical ingenuity, conceptual and vocal creativity , imagination , artistic integrity, virtuoso giutar playing and atmospherics as before. So they just worked with the talent that was left and such is the insurmountable hand of destiny
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ldlanberg
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 18 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 249
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Posted: May 29 2006 at 01:01 |
ryba wrote:
phil is in my opinion one of the best rock and pop musicians. you can dispute about it but it is all you can do about it. to mock on him and critisize always that he made genesis pop is nonsense and snobish. they made such a music they wanted to do. you like it or not. best wishes. |
True and well-said. Things can be disputed...but in the end the dispute is never really resolved. Things are what they are.
His splendid drumming notwithstanding, P.C. was also one of the most intuitive stage performers in rock -- progressive or otherwise. He was a natural in drawing the audience right into the songs -- and he didn't have to dress like a clown to do it.
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LDL
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sbrushfan
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Posted: May 29 2006 at 20:10 |
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High Five, Idlanberg! Thanks for hitting the nail on the head.
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Some world views are spacious, and some are merely spaced...
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 05:33 |
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Well, if SEBTP had been the last thing Phil Collins did musically, I would imagine he would have gone back to acting. He did, after all come from stage school.
However, if you know anything about Phil Collins, you'll know that music is in his blood. He would have always been making music, and Brand X would probably have come about even if he had left Genesis early on.
I rate Phil Collins very highly as a drummer. Probably the best I've heard in prog or rock of any kind. It's not because my favourite prog band is Genesis that I say that, it's because his drumming is one of many elements of the Genesis formula that contribute to making them my favourite band.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Under
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Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 389
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 07:07 |
Simple: Phil Collins would be the singer of the Anthony Phillips Band, which was developed during the 70's into a very popular pop band in the 80s, whereafter he started a solo carreer.
People would say:"Did you know he can play the drumms as well?" "Yes, he did some drumming in the past with Genesis, the band who still makes great progressive albums."
He is and was a good drummer, but people would alyws remember him as a singer of cheesy pop songs. Regardless the path, the same result.
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rupert
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Location: Germany
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 12:57 |
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Phil Collins remains one of the best drummers in rock/pop-history anyway no matter what some people say about "Bad pop". In fact, his love for catchy ballads and Motown had never been a mistake, his first 3 Solo-albums are all very fine and "But seriously" is still good, though afterwards tension got lost and his singing became more and more "flat". I don't understand this taggin' against Phil while Peter Gabriel is always considered a "serious Artist" - Peter's first two solo-albums were FAR from being "IT" while Phil delivered two timeless greats ( though not for "Prog" )..... no, it's not that easy though I prefer Gabriel ( from his 3rd Solo-Album on ), too !
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...I'm a musician/singer/songwriter, visit me on www.reverbnation.com/rupertlenz and there you can choose from 125 recordings you can listen to ( for free ) if you're not limited to prog-rock !
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Under
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Location: Netherlands
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 13:57 |
^ The thread is what Phil Collins could have been if he had quit Genesis after SEBTP.
Sure in anyones imagination it is human to tease good ol' Phil a bit. Phil Collins is not prog anymore but he is very succesful and I don't believe anyone who hasn't got an album of him.
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Chicapah
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 14 2006
Location: United States
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 14:05 |
Good Lord! Just listen to his live drumming on "Seconds Out" or "Three Sides Live" and it will be readily apparent that he is one of the best rock percussionists of all time. Some guys can fake it in the studio or do it over and over until they get it right but you can't pretend on stage. The man was and is phenomenal on the tubs! My favorite is "In the Cage" on Three Sides Live. He and Chester sound like one man with eight limbs.
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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain
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bhikkhu
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 20:09 |
In the '80s, I remember debates about who the best drummer was, and Phil Collins was always in the top three. It had nothing to do with the style of music Genesis was doing at the time, it was about pure talent. I remember a friend saying, "I can't stand Genesis, but Phil is an awesome drummer."
If he had left after seBTp (sorry Teaflax, I had to do it  ), who knows? He may not have gained enough noteriety by that time to be so praised.
Edited by bhikkhu - May 31 2006 at 19:21
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Flip_Stone
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Posted: May 31 2006 at 18:34 |
People seem to act very goofy when it comes to Phil Collins. Either they attack him as the leader in the downfall of Genesis (which he wasn't) or say he deserves to be in the Top 10 of drummers. He's really just in the middle; a decent prog. drummer and singer, but that's about it.
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Under
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Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Netherlands
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Posted: June 01 2006 at 10:06 |
^ 
Why can't he be in the top 10 of drummers and be the leader of the downfall (which indeed he was not by himself)?
A decent prog drummer is a bit too little credit for Phil Collins.
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Phil Collins - Could have been?
