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Man Erg
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Posted: October 12 2004 at 08:12 |
In no Particular order
Genesis - The Lamb
Camel - Moonmadness
Camel - Snowgoose
Moody Blues - Days of Future Passed
Jethro Tull - Thick as a Brick
Jethro Tull - Passion Play
Fruup - Prince of Heavens Eyes(?)
Aphrodites Child - 666
Pretty Things - SF Sorrow
Who - Quadrophenia
XTC - Skylarking
Edited by Man Erg
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Easy Livin
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Posted: October 12 2004 at 15:10 |
Arena have done a couple of really good ones, "The visitor" and "Contagion". The latter is based on a story by Clive Nolan, the narrative for which is included on the "Contagium" EP.
Nolan has also also worked with Oliver Wakeman on a couple of good concept albums, "Jabberwocky" and "The hound of the Baskervilles".
Rick Wakeman has done plenty of course, in addition to those mentioned, I would add "Return to the centre of the earth" "No earthly connection" (his most under-rated album?) and "Out there".
Surely the prize for the most over the top, unashamedly pompous, but wonderfully entertaining series of albums goes to Rhapsody. I love 'em!
Away from prog, Boston's "Third stage" was an really good concept album.
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Prog_Bassist
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Posted: October 12 2004 at 16:12 |
The Lamb by Genesis. I can't believe how beautifully written this album is. It's wonderful, I love all the symbolism.
I also like pink floyd's dark side of the moon, I never liked it that much at first, but it grew on me.
Marillion's Misplaced Childhood.
There's a whole lot more but i cant think of them.
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Dick Heath
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Posted: October 12 2004 at 17:26 |
Man Erg wrote:
In no Particular order
Pretty Things - SF Sorrow
Who - Quadrophenia
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When does a rock opera become a concept album: when a rock band is a progressive rock band?????
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maani
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Posted: October 12 2004 at 18:12 |
All:
From what I can see, the phrase "concept album" is being applied pretty broadly - perhaps too broadly. For example, I would not consider either Brain Salad Surgery or Skylarking (among others) "concept" albums. A "concept album" by de facto definition follows a single, cohesive (or reasonably cohesive...) "concept" - it is not simply a group of songs that have a theme, much less a group of songs that simply have a similar style or work together well. [N.B. As an example, Tull's "Crest of a Knave" does, indeed, have a very specific "theme" that runs among the songs - observations made "on the road" during a tour - but it is not a "concept" album. Similarly, on Nektar's "Down to Earth," all the songs have a circus theme, but I do not consider it a "concept" album.] It has to do with an "approach" to the thematic nature of the album: i.e., "theme" in and of itself is not enough; there must be something more.
As an aside - and despite the fact that I will undoubtedly get shot - I'm one of those who does not consider Sgt. Pepper a true "concept" album, despite the fact that it virtually defined that genre. Indeed, I might even argue that Dark Side is not a true "concept" album either, despite that, like Pepper, it helped define the genre.
I obviously define "concept album" more narrowly than most. Given this, my favorite true "concept" albums, in alphabetical order by band, are:
Dream Theater - Metropolis: Scenes From a Memory Genesis - The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway Gentle Giant - Three Friends Gentle Giant - The Power and the Glory Godley/Creme - Consequences Jethro Tull - Thick as a Brick Klaatu - Hope Marillion - Misplaced Childhood Marillion - Brave Moody Blues - Days of Future Passed Nektar - Recycled Pink Floyd - The Wall Rick Wakeman - Journey to the Center of the Earth Rick Wakeman - Myths & Legends of King Arthur
You will note that, of the nine "seminal" prog-rock groups - Floyd, Crimson, Moody Blues, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Yes, Jethro Tull, VDGG, ELP - I do not consider any of Crimson's, VDGG's, ELP's, or even Yes' albums to be true "concept" albums (though Tales probably comes closest of any of them).
Peace.
Edited by maani
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penguindf12
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Posted: October 12 2004 at 18:33 |
I agree with maani, but does it really matter the definition? A concept can be a theme or a full-blown CONCEPT concept. Hell, the word "concept" means "idea". Aren't all albums "ideas"? Doesn't really matter, it's just a word.
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Fitzcarraldo
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Posted: October 12 2004 at 18:56 |
maani wrote: "...the phrase "concept album" is being applied pretty broadly - perhaps too broadly."
! agree. I've never considered "Brain Salad Surgery", for example, to be a concept album. And neither do I consider "Sgt Pepper" a concept album.
penguindf12, of course nobody is losing sleep over the word, but I think the meaning does matter a little. Otherwise why bother using the term at all?
And, just to add to the excellent albums mentioned so far:
LE ORME - "Felona E Sorona"
MUSEO ROSENBACH - "Zarathustra"
BANCO - "Darwin!" (Could possibly be argued it's a theme, I agree!)
Don't forget all that wonderful Italian Prog!
Others have mentioned TRIUMVIRAT's "Spartacus" and "Pompeii", very much concept albums. But I think TRIUMVIRAT's "Illusions On A Double Dimple" could just about be classified as a concept album too - even the album title sets the scene - but I could concede that it could be seen purely as thematic rather than a true concept album.
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Dan Bobrowski
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Posted: October 12 2004 at 19:00 |
Snow - Spock's Beard
The Shaming of the True - Kevin Gilbert
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Cesar Inca
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Posted: October 12 2004 at 22:53 |
This is my concept-album Top 18
Dream Theater - Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From a Memory / Genesis - The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway / Jethro Tull - Thick as a Brick / Camel - The Snow Goose / Marillion - Misplaced Childhood / Marillion - Brave / Nektar - Journey to the Center of the Eye / IQ - Subterranea / Rick Wakeman - The Myths & Legends of King Arthur / Arena - The Visitor / Peter Hammill - Incoherence / Canarios - Ciclos / Eloy - Ocean / Le Orme - Felona e Sorona / Vangelis - Albedo 0.39 / Saga - Generation 13 / Asgard - Imago Mundi / Echolyn - Mei
Regards.
Edited by Cesar Inca
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 13 2004 at 00:20 |
I agree with maani, but does it really matter the definition? A concept can be a theme or a full-blown CONCEPT concept |
Conceptual album is a term developed in the early 70's (after some concept albums were already released), and it describes a special kind of album.
Not only a central idea, but a story, a plot, the concept album is like a book and the songs are like the chapters.
I don't think BSS or Dark Side of the Moon are conceptual albums, neither of course From Genesis to the Revelation (As someone mentioned) this last one is only a collection of no related songs from a band that tries to find a hit single.
The name was a mistake accepted by Jonathon King, who had troubles because there already existed a USA band named Genesis, so he placed FGTTR with no artistic name.
Iván
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Velvetclown
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Posted: October 13 2004 at 00:31 |
Thanks EASY I forgot about ARENA
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Man Erg
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Posted: October 13 2004 at 02:12 |
Dick Heath wrote:
Man Erg wrote:
In no Particular order
Pretty Things - SF Sorrow
Who - Quadrophenia
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When does a rock opera become a concept album: when a <span style="font-weight: bold;">rock band</span> is a <span style="font-weight: bold;">progressive rock band</span>?????
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Interesting point.
For example could Passion Play & Thick as a Brick, amongst others,be described as rock operas?Maybe not.
Probably depends on how many movements there are.
But,then again,I know absolutely nothing about opera.
Edited by Man Erg
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Man Erg
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Posted: October 13 2004 at 02:14 |
maani wrote:
All:
From what I can see, the phrase "concept album" is being applied pretty broadly - perhaps too broadly. For example, I would not consider either Brain Salad Surgery or Skylarking (among others) "concept" albums. A "concept album" by de facto definition follows a single, cohesive (or reasonably cohesive...) "concept" - it is not simply a group of songs that have a theme, much less a group of songs that simply have a similar style or work together well. [N.B. As an example, Tull's "Crest of a Knave" does, indeed, have a very specific "theme" that runs among the songs - observations made "on the road" during a tour - but it is not a "concept" album. Similarly, on Nektar's "Down to Earth," all the songs have a circus theme, but I do not consider it a "concept" album.] It has to do with an "approach" to the thematic nature of the album: i.e., "theme" in and of itself is not enough; there must be something more.
As an aside - and despite the fact that I will undoubtedly get shot - I'm one of those who does not consider Sgt. Pepper a true "concept" album, despite the fact that it virtually defined that genre. Indeed, I might even argue that Dark Side is not a true "concept" album either, despite that, like Pepper, it helped define the genre.
I obviously define "concept album" more narrowly than most. Given this, my favorite true "concept" albums, in alphabetical order by band, are:
Dream Theater - Metropolis: Scenes From a MemoryGenesis - The Lamb Lies Down on BroadwayGentle Giant - Three FriendsGentle Giant - The Power and the GloryGodley/Creme - ConsequencesJethro Tull - Thick as a BrickKlaatu - HopeMarillion - Misplaced ChildhoodMarillion - BraveMoody Blues - Days of Future PassedNektar - RecycledPink Floyd - The WallRick Wakeman - Journey to the Center of the EarthRick Wakeman - Myths & Legends of King Arthur
You will note that, of the nine "seminal" prog-rock groups - Floyd, Crimson, Moody Blues, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Yes, Jethro Tull, VDGG, ELP - I do not consider any of Crimson's, VDGG's, ELP's, or even Yes' albums to be true "concept" albums (though Tales probably comes closest of any of them).
Peace. |
I believed Skylarking to be a concept about the weather
and nature.The 'approach'is everything on this album.
You get the feeling of warmth & heat on Grass & Summer's
Couldron.The feeling of greyness on 'Rainy Day,'
The albums production(Todd Rundgren)lends itself wholeheartedly to the'concept'.The feelings of warmth,
oppresiveness (as described before)the sound effects
birds,bees ,cattle,thunder lightening etc.In fact I believe Skylarking to IMHO be firmly with your remit of
a concept album.
Edited by Man Erg
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Easy Livin
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Posted: October 13 2004 at 15:06 |
I do indeed think your definition is too narrow Maani.
I reckon there are essentially 2 types of concept album.
There are those where all the tracks have the same theme ("Dark Side of the Moon","Tales From Topographic Oceans"). Each of the tracks on these albums is a piece distinct piece of music, and there is little musically to link them together. Often (but not necessarily) the tracks will segue into each other, providing a continuous experience. Each track is autonomous, with tracks such as Money and The Great Gig in the Sky constituting excellent pieces of work in themselves. The album when heard as a whole though forms a complete piece of work, which is thematically linked.
Another example of this type of concept album is "The Six Wives of Henry the Eighth" by RICK WAKEMAN. There are (inevitably) six tracks on this album, one for each wife. Each track is an instrumental, written to reflect Wakeman’s perception of the character of the wife in question. I wonder Maani and Ivan, whether this falls within your definition of a concept album? I would say it has to be one.
The other type of concept album tells a story from start to finish. "The Myths and legends of King Arthur and the Knight of the Round Table", and "SF Sorrow" by THE PRETTY THINGS (Widely acknowledged to be the first concept album) fall into this category. Often on these types of albums, the musical themes intertwine, and are repeated. Sometimes, such albums can be referred to as Rock Operas. The distinction between a concept album and a rock opera is blurred, but generally, a rock opera will follow the traditional operatic method, with each part being played by a specific singer. The grey areas occur with such albums as "The War of the Worlds", where guest singers play specific parts.It is not generally regarded however as a rock opera, but as a concept album (based on the story by HG Wells).
WAKEMAN’s "King Arthur" album is interesting in that.a couple of the tracks, "Guinnivere" and "Merlin the Magician", exclude themselves from the story, and are written in the same way as the tracks on "Six Wives" in that they paint a picture of the person.
Interestingly, progressive rock has always been inextricably linked with concept albums. There is nothing to say that a progressive rock album must be a concept album, or vice versa, but the overlap is disproportionately high. I cannot for example think off hand of many progressive rock bands who have not made a concept album. (ELP is indeed one, I think the listing of "BSS" was clutching at straws) In many cases, these are considered to be the pinnacle of a band’s career. This is probably not a coincidence, as a concept album will generally require that the band structures the album as a whole, rather than write individual tracks, giving it a coherency and continuity other albums often lack.
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maani
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Posted: October 13 2004 at 18:29 |
All:
Fitz: How could I forget Zarathustra! Thanks.
Easy Livin: I won't quibble about your most recent post; I think you and I are actually in agreement about more than we are in disagreement about, and you pretty much nailed it on the head re your two types of concept albums.
Re "Six Wives," I suppose it's a concept album of sorts. Somehow, it is more difficult (or less difficult, depending on how you look at it) to classify a non-lyrical album as a "concept" album. Still, again, I won't quibble.
My only concern is that if "theme" is enough - and indeed, if "theme" is interchangeable with "concept" - then the definition becomes too broad. I think this is what I was trying to get at the first time, and what made my original definition "narrow." As noted, if we accept your definition, then Crest of a Knave is a "theme" album (if not a "concept" album), as are many, many albums that few people would classify as "concept" albums.
It seems that this issue is as tetchy as the definition of "prog rock"...
Peace.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 14 2004 at 01:50 |
I also have more agreements than disagreements with your points of view Easy Living, this are some points about your perspective:
Easy Living wrote:
I reckon there are essentially 2 types of concept album |
I don't think so, I believe there is only one class of concept albums, those in which ALL SONGS share a common concept, each and every one is part of the same plot, story or idea.
Easy Living wrote:
There are those where all the tracks have the same theme ("Dark Side of the Moon","Tales From Topographic Oceans"). Each of the tracks on these albums is a piece distinct piece of music, and there is little musically to link them together. |
Dark Side of the moon may have a depressing and critical atmosphere or central theme about madnes, this is a thematic album like Trespass (Dark Obscure), Point of Know Return (Live is futile) or many others, but each song is independant from the rest. Money has no relation with Great Gig in the Sky or Breathe with Brain Damage. This album is by no mean a concept one as Brain Salad Surgery (What relation has Benny the Bouncer with Jerusalem for example).
Tales From Topographic Oceans on the other hand is a parallel story of humanity concieved in the mind of Jon Anderson, and even when the songs may seem independant they are linked one with the other as stages in that evolution (Which only Jon understands ).
Easy Living wrote:
The other type of concept album tells a story from start to finish. |
Not in all the cases my friend, it doesn't have to be a story from start to finish, the concept can be simpler, Illussions on a Double Dimple is based in the illusions of a drunk man (Double Dimple is a drink) and it's a concept album, because each song is linked with the main concept.
A concept album doesn't have to narrate The Illiad to be conceptual, only needs to have a plot or argument that links each song with all the rest like Thick as a Brick which is only the transcription of a fictional poem by a fictional author.
Easy Living wrote:
Another example of this type of concept album is "The Six Wives of Henry the Eighth" by RICK WAKEMAN. There are (inevitably) six tracks on this album, one for each wife. Each track is an instrumental, written to reflect Wakeman’s perception of the character of the wife in question. I wonder Maani and Ivan, whether this falls within your definition of a concept album? I would say it has to be one |
I don't see the problem, the plot is the interpretation of the story of the six wives of a king, it's a chapter in British History. It's obviously a conceptual album from the perspective of Rick Wakeman.
Easy Living wrote:
WAKEMAN’s "King Arthur" album is interesting in that.a couple of the tracks, "Guinnivere" and "Merlin the Magician", exclude themselves from the story, and are written in the same way as the tracks on "Six Wives" in that they paint a picture of the person. |
Please Easy Living, Guinivere and Arthur are characters of the famous Myth, the way the author tells the story doesn't matter at all, Wakeman could only describe characters in his album at it will still be a conceptual album about Arthur Pendragon.
Just compare two movie versions of the same myth, the excellent Excalibur (Boorman) with the cheesy The First Knight (The one with Richard Gere), the two movies have almost nothing in common, the first one is a well developed legend and the second one is a cheesy love story with an incredibly stupid ending, where the traitor Lancelot stays with the lady after the King dies, but both are different perspectives of the same story.
Iván
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emdiar
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Posted: October 14 2004 at 11:10 |
The so-called "concept" of DSOTM is not madness but simply "Life". "Money", "Great Gig.." etc., they are all linked by their clear and unambiguous "theme" which is the big and inevitable issues common to us all.
Does this mean any Westlife album is a concept album simply because all of the songs deal with chocolate box style love? I think not.
Maani, I thought your definition was too narrow, but on reflection I can see your point. You have to draw the line somewhere.
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Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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Easy Livin
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Posted: October 14 2004 at 15:03 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
I also have more agreements than disagreements with your points of view Easy Living, this are some points about your perspective:
Easy Living wrote:
I reckon there are essentially 2 types of concept album |
I don't think so, I believe there is only one class of concept albums, those in which ALL SONGS share a common concept, each and every one is part of the same plot, story or idea.
I go along with that Ivan, the point I was making was the two different ways of presenting it.
Easy Living wrote:
There are those where all the tracks have the same theme ("Dark Side of the Moon","Tales From Topographic Oceans"). Each of the tracks on these albums is a piece distinct piece of music, and there is little musically to link them together. |
Dark Side of the moon may have a depressing and critical atmosphere or central theme about madnes, this is a thematic album like Trespass (Dark Obscure), Point of Know Return (Live is futile) or many others, but each song is independant from the rest. Money has no relation with Great Gig in the Sky or Breathe with Brain Damage. This album is by no mean a concept one as Brain Salad Surgery (What relation has Benny the Bouncer with Jerusalem for example).
Tales From Topographic Oceans on the other hand is a parallel story of humanity concieved in the mind of Jon Anderson, and even when the songs may seem independant they are linked one with the other as stages in that evolution (Which only Jon understands ).
This is where we differ Ivan, I reckon DSOTM is a concept album. I admit though in this case it's a feel that it's a concept album, and could probably not be backed up if examined too "technically". I don't think TFTO was a story dreamed up by Anderson, the sleeve notes indicate it it is based on a "lengthy footnote in Autobiography of a Yogi which described four sciptures covering various aspects of religion and life".
Easy Living wrote:
The other type of concept album tells a story from start to finish. |
Not in all the cases my friend, it doesn't have to be a story from start to finish, the concept can be simpler, Illussions on a Double Dimple is based in the illusions of a drunk man (Double Dimple is a drink) and it's a concept album, because each song is linked with the main concept.
That then fits in with my other type of concept album where the tracks are related but does not tell a story.
A concept album doesn't have to narrate The Illiad to be conceptual, only needs to have a plot or argument that links each song with all the rest like Thick as a Brick which is only the transcription of a fictional poem by a fictional author.
A yes, Gerald Bostock's masterpiece. I remember Q magazine embarassed themselves once by discussing him as if he actually existed outside the mind of Mr Anderson!
Easy Living wrote:
Another example of this type of concept album is "The Six Wives of Henry the Eighth" by RICK WAKEMAN. There are (inevitably) six tracks on this album, one for each wife. Each track is an instrumental, written to reflect Wakeman’s perception of the character of the wife in question. I wonder Maani and Ivan, whether this falls within your definition of a concept album? I would say it has to be one |
I don't see the problem, the plot is the interpretation of the story of the six wives of a king, it's a chapter in British History. It's obviously a conceptual album from the perspective of Rick Wakeman.
But in this case, if you played the album to someone did not know its title, would they ever guess what the concept was? Even Wakeman admits in his interview with the great man " I always said that this was my vision of the wives in an abstract way." For me, this will always be a concept album, but surely it is much harder with just the music on an album like this to justify why. Hence my proposal earlier that a lot of it is down to feel.
Easy Living wrote:
WAKEMAN’s "King Arthur" album is interesting in that.a couple of the tracks, "Guinnivere" and "Merlin the Magician", exclude themselves from the story, and are written in the same way as the tracks on "Six Wives" in that they paint a picture of the person. |
Please Easy Living, Guinivere and Arthur are characters of the famous Myth, the way the author tells the story doesn't matter at all, Wakeman could only describe characters in his album at it will still be a conceptual album about Arthur Pendragon.
I wasn't suggesting Arthur was anything other than a concept album, just using it as example of one which incorporates both of my "types".
Just compare two movie versions of the same myth, the excellent Excalibur (Boorman) with the cheesy The First Knight (The one with Richard Gere), the two movies have almost nothing in common, the first one is a well developed legend and the second one is a cheesy love story with an incredibly stupid ending, where the traitor Lancelot stays with the lady after the King dies, but both are different perspectives of the same story.
Or Kevin Costner playing Robin Hood!
Iván |
Edited by Easy Livin
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Cesar Inca
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Posted: October 14 2004 at 23:07 |
'Tales from Topographic Oceans' is clearly a concept-album, and there's lots of musical motifs shared by two of the suites. The passage after the intro to track 1 is the same than the intro to suite 4, for example.
There are those concept-albums that are not centered on one subject (a king's wives or pictures by one painter) or a storyline (The Wall, Subterranea, The Lamb), but in a flow of emotions: that's the case for Fates Warning's extraordinary "A Pleasant Shade of Grey" (mid-life crisis), and also for Pain of Salvation's "One Hour by the Concrete Lake" (urban pollution and cancer).
Arena's "The Visitor" is a mixture of storyline and flow of emotions. Each song in IQ's "Ever" is based upon the emotions that come before and/or during and/or after mourning a relative's or close friend's death.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 14 2004 at 23:50 |
I don't think TFTO was a story dreamed up by Anderson, the sleeve notes indicate it it is based on a "lengthy footnote in Autobiography of a Yogi which described four sciptures covering various aspects of religion and life". |
You're giving me the reason, the concept of TFTO is Jon Anderson's halucinated perspective of various aspects of religion and life, that's a strong and complex concept.
But in this case, if you played the album to someone did not know its title, would they ever guess what the concept was? |
It could be about almost anything anything (The creation of the Earth in six days or even Six of the seven dwarfs), but the point we don't get the plot without Ricks help doesn't make it less conceptual.
That then fits in with my other type of concept album where the tracks are related but does not tell a story. |
Don't agree, Illusions on a Double Dimple is the narratiom of what the guy during the time he was drunk. Not a strong story as Spartacus or The War ofctyhe Worlds, but a story doesn't have to be deep to be a story.
Or Kevin Costner playing Robin Hood! |
Now, this is almost as scary as Mel Gibson playing the role of Hamlet
Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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