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Topic ClosedUnicorn Vs The Madcap Laughs
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Poll Question: Which album you prefer?
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2015 at 14:06
Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

@Dean, both of them were great shamans of unplugged hippy music where the lyrics were important as same as the music......I know, I know, you cant understand Drago's lyrics......

You are correct - I cannot understand Mlinarec's lyrics and I can understand Barrett's, but that is not all we are discussing here. I wanted to know how Barrett's The Madcap Laughs reminds you of psychedelic folk singer-songwriter Mlinarec. If it is purely in the lyrics then you've answered that, so since "unplugged" does not equal "folk" then Syd Barrett's The Madcap Laughs is not Acid/Psych Folk and we're done here. 

Thank you for your time.
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Points: 20609 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2015 at 14:18
^And who said that The Mad Cap Laughs is ''unplugged"?
 
Just curious.
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Points: 20609 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2015 at 14:39
If Barrett had never been a member of Pink Floyd and produced the Mad Cap Laughs in isolation, would anyone question weather that album was acid folk?
 
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Points: 13063 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2015 at 15:04
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

If Barrett had never been a member of Pink Floyd and produced the Mad Cap Laughs in isolation, would anyone question weather that album was acid folk?
 
The more germane question is, would a record company have even released his solo work without his prior work with Floyd and the assistance of members of Floyd? Like Nick Drake, Barrett was such a basket case that he was unable to hawk his albums via live appearances.
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Points: 954 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2015 at 15:41
@Dean ha ha ha it was a nice try, but alas ... Unplugged hippie music in 1970 could have been only psych (acid) folk and it doesnt matter whether it was played by Syd Barrett on his unplugged Telecaster in a studio, or it was played by Drago Mlinarec on the street of Dubrovnik, or by some unknow flower children in England who just sitting at fresh mellowed grass with an acoustic guitar, a pair of bongas and LSD...that all was acid folk. 
Every nation have its own folk music and hippie nation was not an exception because acid folk was their folk music. Get it?
I salute you!
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2015 at 15:59
Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

@Dean ha ha ha it was a nice try, but alas ... Unplugged hippie music in 1970 could have been only psych (acid) folk and it doesnt matter whether it was played by Syd Barrett on his unplugged Telecaster in a studio, or it was played by Drago Mlinarec on the street of Dubrovnik, or by some unknow flower children in England who just sitting at fresh mellowed grass with an acoustic guitar, a pair of bongas and LSD...that all was acid folk. 
Every nation have its own folk music and hippie nation was not an exception because acid folk was their folk music. Get it?

I salute you!

No. Folk is a genre of music separate from rock. Unplugged rock is still rock. It is not folk. Learn this. It is important.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2015 at 02:53
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^And who said that The Mad Cap Laughs is ''unplugged"?
 
Just curious.
"Komandant Shamal" did. I was merely echoing his claim in order to refute it.
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Points: 954 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2015 at 04:57
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

@Dean ha ha ha it was a nice try, but alas ... Unplugged hippie music in 1970 could have been only psych (acid) folk and it doesnt matter whether it was played by Syd Barrett on his unplugged Telecaster in a studio, or it was played by Drago Mlinarec on the street of Dubrovnik, or by some unknow flower children in England who just sitting at fresh mellowed grass with an acoustic guitar, a pair of bongas and LSD...that all was acid folk. 
Every nation have its own folk music and hippie nation was not an exception because acid folk was their folk music. Get it?

I salute you!

No. Folk is a genre of music separate from rock. Unplugged rock is still rock. It is not folk. Learn this. It is important.
Oh dear..... Are you, after your huge electronic odyssey [28 albums, right?] have already forgotten the importance of riffs in rock music? I'm affraid that you should to learn (again, hahaha) that riff produces rock. For example, Keith Richards' riffs on "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction", or Dave Davies' riffs on "You Got Me Now", or Pete Townshend's riffs on "I Can't Explain", or Jimi Hendrix' riffs on "Voodoo Child", or Marc Bolan's riffs on "Get It On", etc, etc,... Syd Barrett's two albums contain nothing of that. His best (solo) songs are mainly acoustic, without rock riffs, so that is [psychedelic rock related] ACID FOLK ie unplugged hippie music.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2015 at 06:19
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

If Barrett had never been a member of Pink Floyd and produced the Mad Cap Laughs in isolation, would anyone question weather that album was acid folk?
 
The album is so un-Pink Floyd it I suspect that most people can listen to it in isolation and not call it acid folk, because hypothetical what ifs aside, that is all anyone can do. It's an album by a solo singer-songwriter recorded almost two years after anything he recorded with Floyd.

The album raises a 'is it/isn't it folk?' debate because of how it was recorded, not because of any intention of Barrett to record a folk-rock album. 

We can ignore the early recording sessions with Peter Jenner, (who I believe simply didn't know what he was doing, let alone understand what Barrett wanted to do), because only one backing track from those sessions made it on to the final cut of the album. It should be noted that the sessions Barrett recorded for Kevin Ayres came from this time (so draw what conclusions you will from that).

Tracks for most of the songs, (though not all that were used, but more of that later), were recorded much later by Malcolm Jones, who at that time was director of the newly formed Harvest imprint and mainly involved in A&R for the label. Jones acted as producer for the album because the preferred option, Norman Smith, was busy with Floyd recording Ummagumma, (Jones's only production credit prior to that was with Love Sculpture) - after the failed sessions with Jenner the big-wigs at EMI and Abbey Road wanted someone responsible in control and Jones wanted someone Barrett would feel comfortable working with, I suspect that Barrett wanted to produce himself but EMI would not permit that. It was Barrett who suggested that Jones do it and he reluctantly agreed.

The album was recorded in the (then) unconventional way of having Barrett record each song as just singer and rhythm guitar to which "backing track" of drum, bass, keyboards and more guitar would be added later and then solo's would be overdubbed over that, rather than the more conventional way of building up each song from the ground-up. We can speculate over why it was recorded like that until the cows come home - personally I suspect that it was a combination of urgency in getting the two years of material Barratt had in his head recorded and the need to have "demo" guide-tracks of these songs for other musicians to learn and thus work with. Little is known of what Barratt intended or wanted, but it is known that he had ideas for long instrumentals that were never realised successfully on tape. 

The problem with that approach is that most of the "music" was essentially improvised around the lyrics, so that each subsequent re-take was different, whether that was a result of Barratt's supposed mental state or simply how he worked is another cause for much pointless speculation. [Again, I have my own personal view on that, but it is as irrelevant as anyone else's]. 

Working without a pre-recorded backing track means that many of the songs lacked a defined beat - something Robert Wyatt discovered when he was asked to overdub a drum track onto these "guide tracks" - time-signatures were all over the place, Barrett would start verses mid-bar and he would stop playing rhythm to play a solo then continue the rhythm out of time, making it difficult (and in some cases impossible) to over-lay a rock/pop beat onto them. Jerry Shirley and Willie Wilson were then brought in to play drum and bass along with Barrett to keep him in time with some success but not entirely. From this we could draw the conclusion that the intention was for the songs to be rock/pop songs, and again, personally I believe that was the intent from the get-go. If all Barrett wanted was to record a singer-song writer folk album then the story would probably have ended there. 

In his frustration Barrett then went behind Jones's back to Gilmour to ask him for help with the album and Jones (again reluctantly) agreed to hand over to Gilmour/Waters (and Wright) - the word Jones used was "acquiesced". They listened to the recordings and decided to re-do many of them, why is again something we can only speculate about. That's when the problems that had faced Jones became apparent to Gilmouret al, the re-takes were different, often very different. [I tend to ignore the false-starts and "page-turning" break because those happens all the time in the studio, I question the inclusion of them on the album but I suspect it was a reflection of everyone involved's frustration at the time, including Barrett's]. Pressure to finish the album then took over, whether this was due to EMI big-wigs, lack of studio-time, "Floyds" prior commitments to their own albums (More and Ummagumma) and tours, or to Barratt himself are all probably contributory here, so they pieced together an album of some kind of coherence using the takes that were the easiest to work with (though as many have commented since, including Jones, not necessarily the best takes).

If you feel the end result makes it an Folk-rock album then that is an opinion. I think it feels like a folk album because of how it was recorded but that doesn't make it a folk album. It should be noted that many (often posthumous) releases from salvaged "singer plus guitar" demo tapes have this "feel" too.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2015 at 06:30
Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

@Dean ha ha ha it was a nice try, but alas ... Unplugged hippie music in 1970 could have been only psych (acid) folk and it doesnt matter whether it was played by Syd Barrett on his unplugged Telecaster in a studio, or it was played by Drago Mlinarec on the street of Dubrovnik, or by some unknow flower children in England who just sitting at fresh mellowed grass with an acoustic guitar, a pair of bongas and LSD...that all was acid folk. 
Every nation have its own folk music and hippie nation was not an exception because acid folk was their folk music. Get it?

I salute you!

No. Folk is a genre of music separate from rock. Unplugged rock is still rock. It is not folk. Learn this. It is important.
Oh dear..... Are you, after your huge electronic odyssey [28 albums, right?] have already forgotten the importance of riffs in rock music? I'm affraid that you should to learn (again, hahaha) that riff produces rock. For example, Keith Richards' riffs on "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction", or Dave Davies' riffs on "You Got Me Now", or Pete Townshend's riffs on "I Can't Explain", or Jimi Hendrix' riffs on "Voodoo Child", or Marc Bolan's riffs on "Get It On", etc, etc,... Syd Barrett's two albums contain nothing of that. His best (solo) songs are mainly acoustic, without rock riffs, so that is [psychedelic rock related] ACID FOLK ie unplugged hippie music.
Personal attack, however they are intended, are unwarranted. If you cannot continue this conversation without snide and mean-spirited comments then we are done here.

Lack of riffs does not make a piece of music "folk" or "not-rock" - very little Progressive Rock is "riff-based"

Acoustic does not equal Folk. 

Stern Smile


/edit: ...and it's 52 albums, not 28 Wink


Edited by Dean - April 19 2015 at 06:40
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Points: 20609 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2015 at 12:44
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

If Barrett had never been a member of Pink Floyd and produced the Mad Cap Laughs in isolation, would anyone question weather that album was acid folk?
 
The album is so un-Pink Floyd it I suspect that most people can listen to it in isolation and not call it acid folk, because hypothetical what ifs aside, that is all anyone can do. It's an album by a solo singer-songwriter recorded almost two years after anything he recorded with Floyd.

The album raises a 'is it/isn't it folk?' debate because of how it was recorded, not because of any intention of Barrett to record a folk-rock album. 

We can ignore the early recording sessions with Peter Jenner, (who I believe simply didn't know what he was doing, let alone understand what Barrett wanted to do), because only one backing track from those sessions made it on to the final cut of the album. It should be noted that the sessions Barrett recorded for Kevin Ayres came from this time (so draw what conclusions you will from that).

Tracks for most of the songs, (though not all that were used, but more of that later), were recorded much later by Malcolm Jones, who at that time was director of the newly formed Harvest imprint and mainly involved in A&R for the label. Jones acted as producer for the album because the preferred option, Norman Smith, was busy with Floyd recording Ummagumma, (Jones's only production credit prior to that was with Love Sculpture) - after the failed sessions with Jenner the big-wigs at EMI and Abbey Road wanted someone responsible in control and Jones wanted someone Barrett would feel comfortable working with, I suspect that Barrett wanted to produce himself but EMI would not permit that. It was Barrett who suggested that Jones do it and he reluctantly agreed.

The album was recorded in the (then) unconventional way of having Barrett record each song as just singer and rhythm guitar to which "backing track" of drum, bass, keyboards and more guitar would be added later and then solo's would be overdubbed over that, rather than the more conventional way of building up each song from the ground-up. We can speculate over why it was recorded like that until the cows come home - personally I suspect that it was a combination of urgency in getting the two years of material Barratt had in his head recorded and the need to have "demo" guide-tracks of these songs for other musicians to learn and thus work with. Little is known of what Barratt intended or wanted, but it is known that he had ideas for long instrumentals that were never realised successfully on tape. 

The problem with that approach is that most of the "music" was essentially improvised around the lyrics, so that each subsequent re-take was different, whether that was a result of Barratt's supposed mental state or simply how he worked is another cause for much pointless speculation. [Again, I have my own personal view on that, but it is as irrelevant as anyone else's]. 

Working without a pre-recorded backing track means that many of the songs lacked a defined beat - something Robert Wyatt discovered when he was asked to overdub a drum track onto these "guide tracks" - time-signatures were all over the place, Barrett would start verses mid-bar and he would stop playing rhythm to play a solo then continue the rhythm out of time, making it difficult (and in some cases impossible) to over-lay a rock/pop beat onto them. Jerry Shirley and Willie Wilson were then brought in to play drum and bass along with Barrett to keep him in time with some success but not entirely. From this we could draw the conclusion that the intention was for the songs to be rock/pop songs, and again, personally I believe that was the intent from the get-go. If all Barrett wanted was to record a singer-song writer folk album then the story would probably have ended there. 

In his frustration Barrett then went behind Jones's back to Gilmour to ask him for help with the album and Jones (again reluctantly) agreed to hand over to Gilmour/Waters (and Wright) - the word Jones used was "acquiesced". They listened to the recordings and decided to re-do many of them, why is again something we can only speculate about. That's when the problems that had faced Jones became apparent to Gilmouret al, the re-takes were different, often very different. [I tend to ignore the false-starts and "page-turning" break because those happens all the time in the studio, I question the inclusion of them on the album but I suspect it was a reflection of everyone involved's frustration at the time, including Barrett's]. Pressure to finish the album then took over, whether this was due to EMI big-wigs, lack of studio-time, "Floyds" prior commitments to their own albums (More and Ummagumma) and tours, or to Barratt himself are all probably contributory here, so they pieced together an album of some kind of coherence using the takes that were the easiest to work with (though as many have commented since, including Jones, not necessarily the best takes).

If you feel the end result makes it an Folk-rock album then that is an opinion. I think it feels like a folk album because of how it was recorded but that doesn't make it a folk album. It should be noted that many (often posthumous) releases from salvaged "singer plus guitar" demo tapes have this "feel" too.

Ok, you've made some very good points and anyone that knows the recording background of any album in depth commands nothing but respect from me.
 
I've not heard the MCL in many a moon including the ones that circle around Saturn, but I do recall songs on the album that had folk music motifs such as a song sung in the same meter with mostly repetitive lyrics and an undeviating melody similar in form to the Old English folk song London Bridge. I believe the song I'm speaking of is Love You, but I could be wrong. There are also a few straight up Folk Rock songs  on the album such as Long Gone as well a few songs that I would consider straight Psych Rock such as Octopus.
 
But a majority to me have atypical folk motifs that are similar but not limited to the types of folk motifs that I stated above, excluding the song Golden Hair which is as folk as you can get. No form of music exists in a vacuum and their will always be outside musical styles and references drawn into it from time to time. No different from Barrett's adventure on TMCL.
 
Where all of this goes array is in the lyrical subject matter or purpose of Syd's lyrics. Syd did not write another version of London Bridge. These were songs that contained whimsical and in some cases, nonsense lyrics. Whatever Syd's actual intention of his lyrics was is unknown and academic. What is known is that acid heads globed on to this music which I mostly consider to be Folk Rock, variations not withstanding. Hence, Folk Rock for acid heads=Acid Folk.
 
But as you stated, even if I drop the Acid Folk tag, the album is definitely predominantly Folk Rock to me, as those very results of the recording process that you have outlined, combined with some of the motifs  that I stated above, are what determined the albums' end result, as opposed to what Barrett intended the album to be. What ever that may have been.
 
We've both explained our positions, so I think we can put this issue to rest now and get back to Prog.
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Points: 887 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2015 at 13:18
Unicorn has been one of my favorite albums since 1985.   I listened
to The Madcap Laughs a lot in college, but it hasn't aged as well
in my mind compared to Unicorn. 
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2015 at 13:46
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 Ok, you've made some very good points and anyone that knows the recording background of any album in depth commands nothing but respect from me.
 
I've not heard the MCL in many a moon including the ones that circle around Saturn, but I do recall songs on the album that had folk music motifs such as a song sung in the same meter with mostly repetitive lyrics and an undeviating melody similar in form to the Old English folk song London Bridge. I believe the song I'm speaking of is Love You, but I could be wrong. There are also a few straight up Folk Rock songs  on the album such as Long Gone as well a few songs that I would consider straight Psych Rock such as Octopus.
 
But a majority to me have atypical folk motifs that are similar but not limited to the types of folk motifs that I stated above, excluding the song Golden Hair which is as folk as you can get. No form of music exists in a vacuum and their will always be outside musical styles and references drawn into it from time to time. No different from Barrett's adventure on TMCL.
 
Where all of this goes array is in the lyrical subject matter or purpose of Syd's lyrics. Syd did not write another version of London Bridge. These were songs that contained whimsical and in some cases, nonsense lyrics. Whatever Syd's actual intention of his lyrics was is unknown and academic. What is known is that acid heads globed on to this music which I mostly consider to be Folk Rock, variations not withstanding. Hence, Folk Rock for acid heads=Acid Folk.
 
But as you stated, even if I drop the Acid Folk tag, the album is definitely predominantly Folk Rock to me, as those very results of the recording process that you have outlined, combined with some of the motifs  that I stated above, are what determined the albums' end result, as opposed to what Barrett intended the album to be. What ever that may have been.
 
We've both explained our positions, so I think we can put this issue to rest now and get back to Prog.
Hmm... certainly food for thought. If by 'London Bridge' you mean the children's nursery rhyme 'London Bridge Is Falling Down' then I don't see it myself, though that rhyme is sung to various different tunes around the world so perhaps the one you are thinking of is not the same as the one I am. Lyrically the problem I have is 'London Bridge Is Falling Down' lacks a chorus that 'Love You' most definitely has, the (apparent) repetition in the nursery rhyme is in the verses all of which are different but end with the phrase "my fair lady". However, the English Pscyh Pop/Rock scene's dalliance with children's nursery rhymes is well known and as far as I am aware would not be considered as Folk Music as such. {then perhaps 'Love You' isn't the right song either}

'Golden Hair' is of course James Joyce's poem 'Lean Out Of Your Window' put to music... as sparse as that music is, it's an acoustic track that I personally don't see as being "as folk as you can get", but hey-ho.

But if you think we've dragged this tired old horse around the paddock long enough then I'm prepared to call it a day too.
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^Right you are about London Bridge as I was referring to the more linear original form found in the Roud Folk Song Index from which our modern nursery rhyme originates. This is neither here nor there.
 
I think we've run our horse to death and I can't afford a new one. May he rest in peace.


Edited by SteveG - April 19 2015 at 14:26
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

If Barrett had never been a member of Pink Floyd and produced the Mad Cap Laughs in isolation, would anyone question weather that album was acid folk?
 
Nope.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2015 at 02:47
Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

If Barrett had never been a member of Pink Floyd and produced the Mad Cap Laughs in isolation, would anyone question weather that album was acid folk?
 
Nope.
Proof?
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Points: 954 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2015 at 03:51
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

If Barrett had never been a member of Pink Floyd and produced the Mad Cap Laughs in isolation, would anyone question weather that album was acid folk?
 
Nope.
Proof?
The music itself is the proof. It's so clear that it is Acid Folk as, for example, it's clear that In the Court of the Crimson King is Prog Rock.
There is a touch of psychedelic rock in Syd Barrett' solo catalogue (few songs) but it couldnt be enough for people who were listening to psychedelic rock albums in 1970 (and later) to call it psychedelic rock in the case that he was not the former Floyd member. 
Furthermore, i think even that Syd Barret hardly could have been in a position to release officially that material in the case that he wasnt the former Floyd member because the Bandcamp, Soundcloud and other platforms werent existed in 1970.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2015 at 04:37
Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

If Barrett had never been a member of Pink Floyd and produced the Mad Cap Laughs in isolation, would anyone question weather that album was acid folk?
 
Nope.
Proof?
The music itself is the proof. It's so clear that it is Acid Folk as, for example, it's clear that In the Court of the Crimson King is Prog Rock.
That isn't proof, that is an informal logical fallacy called "begging the question" where the conclusion is derived from the initial assumption. 

To summarise what you have just said: "The album is Acid Folk because the album is Acid Folk" ... 

Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

There is a touch of psychedelic rock in Syd Barrett' solo catalogue (few songs) but it couldnt be enough for people who were listening to psychedelic rock albums in 1970 (and later) to call it psychedelic rock in the case that he was not the former Floyd member.
That is your supposition, it is not proof. To be clear here, (once again), Not-Rock does not equal Folk.

Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

Furthermore, i think even that Syd Barret hardly could have been in a position to release officially that material in the case that he wasnt the former Floyd member because the Bandcamp, Soundcloud and other platforms werent existed in 1970.
...and that is nonsensical and wholly irrelevant.

...it also is a back-handed insult to artists on Bandcamp/Soundcloud etc...


Edited by Dean - April 20 2015 at 04:45
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...and if anyone is curious - I voted for Unicorn.
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Hey Nonny No....Big smile
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