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Trademark 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
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 Posted: October 15 2010 at 14:10 |
What if the needed medical treatment is the direct result of institutional corporal punishment but it is not desired because of religious beliefs?
Round and round and round....
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 15 2010 at 14:18 |
 Dean wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Dean wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
What does it matter if it's religious custom or not? It is still either right or wrong. You are saying religious beliefs shouldn't be questions. Why is that? Why can you question my policy of discipline, but not my religion. What if my religion teaches that children should be taught obedience from corporal punishment?
Sorry, but a blood transfusion is a medical treatment. So yes they do refuse medical treatment on religious grounds.
You really missed the point of my post or just chose not to address any issue I questioned.
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(I've rescinded my support for religious tolerance over refusing medical treatment following Rob's examples, so this is probably irrelevant now).
I don't see where I've missed the point or failed to address the issue you questioned. I said that corporal punishment is not the same as refusing medical treatment - so questioning religious belief is not the same as questioning a personal policy on discipline. I do not see a connection between the two just because a child is harmed as a consequence of an adult beliefs or principles. I can support one without supporting the other, (just as other's here have done), however, now I support neither.
Sure, refusing blood transfusion is a refusing a medical treatment, but only in a few cases is the blood-transfusion the cure (hence the treatment) - it is part of the procedure and a consequence of surgery. The implication was that they refuse all medical treatment - as you implied by the vitamin example (unless I misread that). As Rob and Jim have given examples of religious communities refusing all medical treatment, my point is now irrelevant and I withdraw that too.
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What if the religious beliefs entail corporate punishment? Then the two coincide so that answer does not suffice.
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 wonderful Freudian slippage  I'm not in favour of any institutional abuse. 
Anywho... if the religious belief entails corporal punishment then it is not refusing medical treatment so the two still do not coincide.
However, if a religion condones corporal punishment then I still oppose the parents who use that as a justification - it is their choice whether they smack their children or not.
So, (referring back to my initial post on this topic) - I no longer support religious belief as a reason for refusing medical treatment, (that is a change from my original opinion based upon what Rob and Jim have posted today) but I do support personal conviction as a reason to prevent authoritarian intervention (which I haven't changed my opinion on). Basically, the people should be allowed to chose themselves and not have that decision made for them by an institution, whether that is the government or an organised religion - on that score that is in line with Libertarian thinking I assume. If their personal conviction is a direct result of religious belief there is not a lot I can do about that - it's a far from perfect world and there are no absolutes - I would prefer a world where religion does not exist, but that's not going to happen in my lifetime.
However, I can never support corporal punishment for any reason or justification, by any individual, whether condoned by an institutions, governments or religious organisations or not - jup that is Liberal thinking, I cannot change my leopard spots to allow the abuse of children by adults.
What if people didn't hit their kids at all? |
It's their choice if they give their children treatment or not. I don't see the difference. But you've already abandoned the position so it's not important. I actually agree with llama that corporal punishment is more humane and desirable for society than imprisonment.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: October 15 2010 at 14:21 |
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Not to mention that if you go to prison you could very well get beaten (or worse) anyway.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 15 2010 at 14:23 |
Epignosis wrote:
Not to mention that if you go to prison you could very well get beaten (or worse) anyway.
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The cops will definitely beat you before you even get to court.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10681
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Posted: October 15 2010 at 14:27 |
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Anyone who would give the government the power to kill its own citizens is in no ways a Libertarian.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 15 2010 at 14:29 |
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When did I do that?
I have complained many times about the death penalty, let alone that the government has claimed the right to assassinate its citizens without so much as a trial.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10681
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Posted: October 15 2010 at 14:32 |
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^ OK, just making sure we're clear on that. I watched the Libertarian convention a few years ago, seems like they are being infiltrated with unhappy Republicans and losing their true path.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: October 15 2010 at 14:37 |
Easy Money wrote:
Anyone who would give the government the power to kill its own citizens is in no ways a Libertarian. |
I can live without a label.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 15 2010 at 14:39 |
Easy Money wrote:
^ OK, just making sure we're clear on that. I watched the Libertarian convention a few years ago, seems like they are being infiltrated with unhappy Republicans and losing their true path. |
The Libertarian party doesn't necessarily reflect libertarianism anymore than the Whig party represented hair pieces.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: October 15 2010 at 14:52 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: October 15 2010 at 16:28 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I actually agree with llama that corporal punishment is more humane and desirable for society than imprisonment.
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Quite a deviation from discussing smacking a kid for skipping their chores or not eating their greens though isn't it.
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What?
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: October 15 2010 at 17:05 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I actually agree with llama that corporal punishment is more humane and desirable for society than imprisonment.
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Yay! Maybe someone will buy my book on the subject (when I bother to write it) after all!
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: October 16 2010 at 12:08 |
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Whatdo you think on putting ankle bracelets to sex offenders so that it is always known where they are? Do you think what they have done justifiew such horrible anti-privacy and liberty measure? I'm torn here.
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: October 16 2010 at 12:11 |
The T wrote:
Whatdo you think on putting ankle bracelets to sex offenders so that it is always known where they are? Do you think what they have done justifiew such horrible anti-privacy and liberty measure? I'm torn here. |
I hate to sound like an extremist, but if we'd just kill 'em in the first place, the ankle bracelet would not be required.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Online
Points: 17332
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Posted: October 16 2010 at 12:40 |
The T wrote:
Do you think what they have done justifies such horrible anti-privacy and liberty measure? |
Absolutely. They forfeit some rights and liberties at the very moment they put their vile hands on another innocent human. Jammun, I understand your feelings, believe me.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 16 2010 at 12:45 |
The T wrote:
Whatdo you think on putting ankle bracelets to sex offenders so that it is always known where they are? Do you think what they have done justifiew such horrible anti-privacy and liberty measure? I'm torn here. |
No it does not. Especially depending on how broad your definition of sexual offender is.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 16 2010 at 12:46 |
Dean wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I actually agree with llama that corporal punishment is more humane and desirable for society than imprisonment.
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Quite a deviation from discussing smacking a kid for skipping their chores or not eating their greens though isn't it. |
Pfft that topic was so 24 hours ago.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: October 16 2010 at 12:48 |
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^ still is
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What?
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Online
Points: 17332
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Posted: October 16 2010 at 12:50 |
Pat, let's say the definition is "forced penetration" to be real clear about it......still gonna defend their rights? Do you have more venom for police officers than sex offenders 
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 16 2010 at 12:56 |
Finnforest wrote:
Pat, let's say the definition is "forced penetration" to be real clear about it......still gonna defend their rights?
Do you have more venom for police officers than sex offenders
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Of course I'll still defend their rights. They'll go to prison, pay their debt, then return to society without the government constantly peering over their back just like a murderer would do.
And Yes I do because the one I pay to commit crimes. At least sex offenders do it free of charge.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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