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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: June 24 2013 at 12:28 |
Gerinski wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
True. But anti-US factions would have little reason to kill a guy like Snowden.
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Putting the US in such trouble in front of the international community, a little reason?! |
Probably better to let him live and see what else he leaks out?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16782
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Posted: June 24 2013 at 16:51 |
Well, they are already furious at the actions of the US government that they have known for too long. Maybe the general public of all of these countries can stop the establishment with their nonsensical journey of trying to take over the whole entire world or to run the lives of people in those other countries.
Edited by King of Loss - June 24 2013 at 16:52
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16782
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Posted: June 24 2013 at 16:54 |
The T wrote:
^I agree, and even if I'm not too fond of Ecuador's government, I'm happy when a little country tells the US emperors Bush Obama Kerry Clinton Rice or whatever "f**k you, we do whatever the hell we want". For too long did every nation south of Mexico do the US' government bidding. It's sad that this is accompanied by atrocious socialist governments that hate internal freedom of expression but what can I say. |
Those socialist governments have no choice but to do things like that due to a much stronger establishment in Washington that actively will seek to destroy any socialist or any non-Washington approved economic systems in the world. It's hard to pass laws approving freedom of expression, speech or press, unless you want to end up like Putin chasing 20 or so American NGOs that have plotted to buy up the Kremlin for Washington.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: June 25 2013 at 11:22 |
It's going to be interesting. Even if support for America does eventually arrive, it may not be very forthcoming in light of the revelations of the extent to which the NSA allegedly snoops on the activities of citizens of other nations. And whoever gets to house Snowden would love to try and extract as many secrets from him as possible. What pressure tactics can USA realistically pursue here? They can't stop doing business with China, too many of their homegrown companies depend heavily on the Chinese economy. From what I know, Europe needs Russian gas so they may not readily go along with USA either.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
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Posted: June 25 2013 at 12:59 |
Yes I'm curious too. Of course he did not board on that plane to Havana, I can guess that it must have been one of the commercial flights with more spies on board ever Russia says that he is still in the transit zone of Moskow airport and that they are not helping him and hope that he leaves the airport asap, but I'm sure that they are giving him a helping hand. Moskow airport must be funny right now, spies from everywhere all over the place, American, Chinese, Russian... The Assange & Co guys must be clever to fool all that intelligence. I can imagine that his escape (I hope he will succeed) is going to be worthy of the best spies movies!
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16782
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Posted: June 25 2013 at 14:12 |
Gerinski wrote:
Yes I'm curious too. Of course he did not board on that plane to Havana, I can guess that it must have been one of the commercial flights with more spies on board ever Russia says that he is still in the transit zone of Moskow airport and that they are not helping him and hope that he leaves the airport asap, but I'm sure that they are giving him a helping hand. Moskow airport must be funny right now, spies from everywhere all over the place, American, Chinese, Russian... The Assange & Co guys must be clever to fool all that intelligence. I can imagine that his escape (I hope he will succeed) is going to be worthy of the best spies movies! |
Or that is before the US kills him.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: June 25 2013 at 14:26 |
This isn't a spy movie. They're not going to kill him.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16782
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Posted: June 25 2013 at 14:36 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
This isn't a spy movie. They're not going to kill him.
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I know, but it is fun to imagine.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: June 25 2013 at 14:43 |
Yeah. Imagining murder is a hoot.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16782
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Posted: June 25 2013 at 15:31 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Yeah. Imagining murder is a hoot.
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I meant in a movie like setting. Honestly, Russia will most likely not give him up, because it's Russia.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: June 25 2013 at 15:46 |
Russia wouldn't give him up because over the past 20 years of international relations with Russia, the US has acted as if the Cold War was still raging. They've systematically botched relations which should have been very strong almost uniformly over the course of 4 presidents.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: June 25 2013 at 16:28 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
This isn't a spy movie. They're not going to kill him.
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I don't put it past our government to murder an innocent citizen. They've done it before and, sadly, will do it again.
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Time always wins.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: June 25 2013 at 18:51 |
While there was SOME sincerity to it, I admit the whole killing him thing was partly just my dreadful humor, and reference to Ron Paul's comment about a drone hitting him. For all the reasons stated I actually don't think he'll be killed. MoM has a good point, why would we give them the botd? They have indeed done it before but I just think its known enough, the "coincidence" of it would cause huge backlash.
heh of course the cold war never ended!! We still have an embargo on Cuba (nevermind we opened up with trade with vietnam of all places first) and remember the part about Russia from the Wolfowitz Doctrine written back '92 "We continue to recognize that collectively the conventional forces
of the states formerly comprising the Soviet Union retain the most
military potential in all of Eurasia; and we do not dismiss the risks to
stability in Europe from a nationalist backlash in Russia or efforts to
reincorporate into Russia the newly independent republics of Ukraine,
Belarus, and possibly others....We must, however, be mindful that
democratic change in Russia is not irreversible, and that despite its
current travails, Russia will remain the strongest military power in
Eurasia and the only power in the world with the capability of
destroying the United States."
A year after its end and already thought was keep treating Russia as if its the USSR. To be fair, more I think about it...I think the Cold War was just economic imperialism as usual, masked/partly involved with an ideological battle. Well the two were mixed...but can't say it was all ideology, Russia wants to keep trying to dominate much as ever. As does the US. As does China, and Germany and probably all strong powers.
It's a two way street, could we have slowly started mending relations? Sure, but that's quite noble....I mean after WWII there was huge chance to say: Hey, Uncle Joe...this was a huge mess, let's just stay respectful of each other, the world, and try to just move on. Truly foster a peaceful environment and etc but obviously both side almost instantly feel back to bad actions. Not saying the US is clean, but Im sure Russia is super skeptical as well, takes two to tango.
I always found IR fascinating yet disturbing. It's such an amazing discussion to have, but makes me feel sick thinking human lives as chess pieces, and the inherent anti freedom involved with all of it :( We're increasingly a globalized world of individuals, being enforced by technology, but states still act like THEY are the individual actors. The friction is really increasing...
Edited by JJLehto - June 25 2013 at 18:57
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: June 25 2013 at 19:37 |
Just when you think Obama couldn't get more backward, idiotic, and tyrannical he comes out with a personal decree that, due to complete junk science that's bullsh*t in every way, the government will be controlling more of our behavior and crushing more jobs. Executive orders are acts of a tyrant and should be disregarded as completely unconstitutional.
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Time always wins.
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16782
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Posted: June 25 2013 at 21:17 |
manofmystery wrote:
Just when you think Obama couldn't get more backward, idiotic, and tyrannical he comes out with a personal decree that, due to complete junk science that's bullsh*t in every way, the government will be controlling more of our behavior and crushing more jobs. Executive orders are acts of a tyrant and should be disregarded as completely unconstitutional. |
and yet he strongly criticizes Putin for doing exactly the same thing as Obama.
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16782
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Posted: June 25 2013 at 21:18 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Russia wouldn't give him up because over the past 20 years of international relations with Russia, the US has acted as if the Cold War was still raging. They've systematically botched relations which should have been very strong almost uniformly over the course of 4 presidents.
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What do you expect from our wonderfully imperial government? When they could easily exploit Russian weakness, they incorporated some of the former Eastern European countries into US satellites. What more goodwill could you expect from actions such as that?
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: June 27 2013 at 08:24 |
manofmystery wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
This isn't a spy movie. They're not going to kill him.
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I don't put it past our government to murder an innocent citizen. They've done it before and, sadly, will do it again. |
Neither do I. But not in this fashion.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 27 2013 at 11:09 |
Ecuador has renounced the ATDPA with the US (a treaty that carries tariff preferences in favor of exports from Ecuador to the US) because it will "not accept it being used as bribery to stop the country from deciding sovereignly about Snowden". Well, I think asylum is coming. All libertarians here: you'll have to applaud little unknown Ecuador for once in your lifetime.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
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Posted: June 27 2013 at 12:44 |
And I guess that Ecuador must be quite a pleasant place to live in, surely better than Russia or Iceland.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 27 2013 at 12:58 |
Quite. Quite.
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