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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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Businesses already have to handle the withholding part of the income tax. I'm not sure it'd be any more of a burden. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
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Maybe my wordiness was in effect. I actually agree. The biggest thing if we shifted taxation completely to sales would be vendors having to route and track taxes to multiple sources.
What does the gallery think of property tax? It makes some sense theoretically but in practice is a convoluted mess, IMO.
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Padraic ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
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I wince when I have to write the check, that's what I think. Particularly this year, when it went up 11%.
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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Oh ok, sorry I misunderstood. I don't agree with any tax. To give a scale I hate it less than the income tax and the estate tax, but more than the sales tax. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
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So in response to a few older "what would that look like?" questions. I've always thought of an individual's social connections as concentric circles. A traditional model would be individual, couple, nuclear family, extended family, neighborhood, village, state, country, world...etc.
Over time with increased mobility, the intermediate groupings have gotten less and less important in the life of the individual. In many cases, it's nuclear family and the world for all practical purposes. (obviously this is an exaggeration).
To me, two things would improve the way we work society.
A) restoration of roles of intermediate groupings of people. (this has to come bottom up, legislation might grease the wheels but it could never be enforced.)
One of the major benefits is an eloboration of the old "it takes a village to raise a child." We bemoan the fact that many children are born to single mothers. But we neglect the fact that those children (much of the time) are often raised not by the mother but by an entire extended family. Even in two adult households, readily available Aunts Uncles and Neighbors (multiple generations) makes child care less of a crisis than it is now. Similarly, care of the old can be naturally distributed rather than done badly by an industry that is under-resourced with low-skill workers.
B) whenever possible, decisions (power) should be relegated to the lowest possible level that is functional. Decentralization favors diversity which allows the new growth that makes any organism flourish. As such, the highest levels of organization should have only the power they absolutely must.
Money should also remain as close to the simplest structures as possible. If it can be done locally, it should. Pooled money and resources are necessary for some societal functions. But whether you call this taxes or whatever, it needs to be extremely transparent for those involved, but minimally transparent for those outside. Thus, I'm not opposed to taxes, but would prefer if most of it stayed local and I could personally look at the books and that the budget would be small enough I could actually get through it in a reasonable amount of time.
Right now our society is very top heavy. There are some advantages to division of labor and using the work of the many to achieve tasks. But the individual has been completely removed from decision making all too often, both in private business matters and in public representation.
That's enough for now. If anyone wants to talk about this great. If not just burp a "meh."
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Padraic ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
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Jay, I've been thinking about very similar things. The thought occurred to me the other day: we'd probably be better off if that local election that no one ever cares about was actually the most important election in our life, and the presidential/Congressional elections the least important.
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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Bring back the Articles of Confederation.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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What I have noted here in the US is that same concept of "local" is diffuse, difficult to point at. I notice lack of of a sense of belonging to a town, to a city, to a place, where all that Jay said could be real. That has relationship with the nature of this country, its size, and its economy. People have less contact with their community and family as they move out to other places to get better jobs. I've never seen in other places what I see here in the US: people seldom, if ever, live all their lives in the same place they were born. What Jay is implying is a move towards collectivism (not economical, social) that I think is utterly impossible in the US which is going in the other direction, towards full-fledged individualism. I guess demographic changes can alter that (hispanics are different in that regard) but even them assimilate into the culture.
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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The US is further from individualistic than it has ever been
I don't get your notion that people are not community oriented in this country. I know being neighborhood conscious is a Philly-type thing, but I can't imagine it's that foreign to the rest of the country. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
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It is not common in the cities I have lived in (Chicago, Minn/St. Paul, St. Louis). There are pockets of neighborhood identification (and as Teo said that is often ethnic more than anything) but even then it's nothing compared to the rural communities I've lived in. But rural communities have limited job opportunities (especially for skilled workers) and the youth flight to the city is well documented.
I think that traditionally, when you say "individualistic" you may actually be talking about the smaller intermediate levels. "Keep it in the family," "We'll take care of this at home." etc. People were not traditionally as individualistic in terms of the single being.
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Negoba ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
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Only half-joking? The Articles certainly conformed to some of the principles you hold dear. (No taxation, minimal Federal Power).
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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Correct that is what I meant. I don't think people are now either. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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Not half-joking. I would fully support the AoC over the Constitution. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
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There are things I like very much about the Articles of Confederation. And yet the country was failing under that model at that time. It would be interesting to see how it would work now. I suspect we are more centralized now than even the Federalists hoped for, but who knows.
Edited by Negoba - September 30 2010 at 15:14 |
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Edited by Dean - September 30 2010 at 18:43 |
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What?
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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I'm not getting involved in privacy of earnings discussions because I believe it is a divisive method of wage control that protects the empoyer more than the employee. I would imagine that no one else on this planet would have that view, so I don't see any point in discussing it wrt consumption tax. If that's being dismissive, then so be it.
Eventhough the venture capitalists who own the company I work for are American, I'm not in America and I don't have an American paycheque with the same deductions as you - my deductions are income-tax, pension and national insurance - eliminating income-tax only removes one of those deductions from my payslip - so when I say "Not sure what you mean by eliminating deductions" that's pretty much what I mean. If that's being dismissive, then so be it.
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What?
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65693 |
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^ Further, the whole line of "It's the business owners that provide employment and therefore shore-up the economy" may be true, but it's equally true that an owner almost always hires because they need help; they aren't doing it as a favor to society or their community, they're doing it cause they want to have a business and need employees. Entrepreneurship is a great thing - I was self-employed for years and it had some very appealing aspects so I'm not knocking owners - but the Conservative stance that employers are somehow more important to the running of an economy than the people they hire is disingenuous.
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Epignosis ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
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Oh! ![]() Cultural-linguistic interference here. That's what we get for speaking English to each other! ![]() When I talk of invasion of privacy, I mean that the government gets to know more about us than we should have to share with anybody, largely because we have to file a tax return and file deductions. That's one big screwy term for us then: Deductions. When I spoke of deductions, I meant the exemptions on our income we claim each year when we file taxes. What you described as deductions, we call "withholdings." We get social security withheld from our paychecks, but deductions are things like medical expenses, business expenses, gambling loses, charitable contributions, mortgage interest, etc. which make more of our income tax-exempt (and therefore we pay less income tax). Edited by Epignosis - September 30 2010 at 19:33 |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Your example isn't realistic enough for me: a 50% increase in minimum wage is not going to happen unless it fails to track inflation and/or median wages again [many US states, (eg Florida), have indirectly linked minimum wage to inflation now so this should never happen]; the company doesn't employ 15 people because it only needs 10 but it does pay minimum wage because it can not because it needs to; it costs more to employ an extra person than just the wage costs, so it a 50% increase isn't the equivalent of employing 5 more people - it's more like 2-3 people; you haven't shown how the 10x$10K payout affects the company's finances or how that affects the selling price of a can of Coke or a pair of Levi's (which is what this was all about) - if 10 people are producing billions of pull-tabs each year worth 10s of millions of dollars, then $100K is easily absorbed, [one operator on a machine stamping out 100 ring-pulls a second can produce 1 billion a year]; the number of people on minimum wage working in manufacturing in the USA is negligible, (possibly zero), so probably no one is making pull-tabs on minimum wage in the USA since most work in food services - if ring-pull tabs are being made in the USA then the machine operators producing them are earning more than minimum wage; the report you cited claims that increases in minimum wage result in a loss of welfare benefits for the employee, (but isn't that what you want?), however they still "earn" more as a result but not through hand-outs - the "missing" 64¢/hr in the report is paid for by your taxes, not from the employer's payroll - (so welfare benefits the employer as much as it does the employee) - the 90¢ of your example is still 90¢ and they still earn more as a result, but they claim less welfare (sounds like a good scheme to me); as you say, most of those on minimum wage are young people living with parents, so they do not qualify for welfare handouts and their parents don't either because they are no longer dependent children - for them a 90¢ increase would net 81¢ in they pay-packet after tax.
Minimum wage is terrible because it shouldn't be necessary at all.
The USA taxes people on minimum wage? what is the point of that when you are going to give some of it back as Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), Food Stamps, and the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC)? (I know you made this point too, I'm agreeing with you). The solution is (again as you say) to decrease income tax (I say to zero), but only for those on minimum wage - but don't apply a fix for 12% of the population across the remaining 88% (or apply a fix for 1.4% of earnings to the remaining 98.6%). Of course it could be applied to everyone by raising the lower threshold and applying a zero percent rate on earnings below that threshold and it would benefit everyone and it would decrease tax revenue, but at least it benefits those who need it by reducing the poverty trap.
If you want to eliminate welfare then you have to provide the people who claim it a valid and legitimate means of earning their way out of it - this is one area where I do not believe the free market will do anything to alleviate this problem. Minimum wage isn't a great system or a perfect solution, principally because it is an easy system to attack ideologically (because it is inherently socialist) and with convincing looking numbers (convincing until you analyse them closely), but it is a necessary system when you do not have a viable alternative. Edited by Dean - September 30 2010 at 20:50 |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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What?
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