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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2012 at 01:11
Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:

The simple answer is, that, for music recorded before 1980, you are missing a lot if you only have C..D.
16 bit 44.1 digital is capable of 65,000 variations of level ( the human ear is capable of much more & can detect differences as small as 6ns). 

Can you provide evidence of either of these statements?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2012 at 03:25
HTTP://NTQT.CM/24BIT.
I have not worked out how to post links here yet, but the web adress above should give a good starting point.
If you are looking for a more detailed explanation, checkout the Bob Ludwig interveiws &  Thomas Lund lectures on Youtube.
I hope this helps.



Edited by Aquiring the Taste - October 26 2012 at 03:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2012 at 03:45
Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:

HTTP://NTQT.CM/24BIT.
I have not worked out how to post links here yet, but the web adress above should give a good starting point.
If you are looking for a more detailed explanation, checkout the Bob Ludwig interveiws &  Thomas Lund lectures on Youtube.
I hope this helps.
Your link pointed to this: 24-Bit Audio Explained By Sean Beavan - which did not give evidence of either of the points you made ie: "digital is capable of 65,000 variations of level ( the human ear is capable of much more..." and  "...can detect differences as small as 6ns)." I know how 24bit differes from 16-bit.
 
 
I don't want a more detailed explanation, I would like to see evidence of the claims you have made, specifically how many level variations is the ear capable of and where does this figure of 6nS come from?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2012 at 11:50
The human ear is a remarkable organ - it can hear very quiet things and it can hear very loud things and it can distinguish between things that are neither very loud nor very quiet, but only up to a point. The range of human hearing goes from 1pW/m² (threshold of hearing) to 100W/m² (threshold of pain), and that is a ratio of 1:10,000,000,000,000 (see here for the science). That seems to be a lot more than the ration of 1:65,535 that a 16-bit CD can produce, but we don't listen to music across the entire range of hearing - that would damage our hearing in a very short space of time.
 
If we convert the 1:10,000,000,000,000 range into dB (see previous link for details) that would equate to 130dB - to put that into context 24-bit audio is 144dB, 16-bit is 97dB, pro-tape is 60dB and vinyl is less than 50dB. We can just about detect a change in volume of 3dB (this figure is used a lot in audio engineering for this reason). This means if we slowly increase the volume from the threshold of hearing to the threshold of pain and asked people to make a tick on a piece of paper when they noticed a difference in volume at the end of the experiment we would average around 43 tick marks (130÷3) - obviously this is a lot less than the 65,535 different signal levels that 16-bit audio can produce. If we replaced the volume control with a rotary switch with 65,535 positions we would go through 1,500 switch positions between tick marks. In reality if you wanted to replace your standard stereo volume control with a rotary switch then fewer positions are needed - since music is not listened to over the full range of hearing 24 positions is sufficient (see here for engineering theory put into audiophilist practice).
 
______________________________________________________________________________________
 
I don't know whether the ear can detect differences as small as 6ns, I can find nothing on the interweb to support this and it's outside the wealth if useless knowledge that my brain is filled with - let's say I'm highly sceptical.
 
6ns (6 nano-seconds or 0.000000006 seconds) is an incredibly small time duration. I think that we tend to get a little blasé about incredibly big and incredibly small numbers because they are difficult to imagine - 6ns or 6µs or 6ms are all "small" and that's as far as we comprehend them even if 6ns is a million times smaller than 6ms because the concept of 1 million is too big to comprehend most of the time too. Nothing I know of in physical nature can react in 6ns: travelling at the speed of light (300 million m/s) light travels 1.8m (~6 feet) which means that in 6ns the light from your ceiling light hasn't reached the floor yet; a sound wave travelling through air at 300 m/s will have travelled 1.8 micron (1.8µm or 0.0018mm) ...  1.8 micron is at least ten times smaller than the thickness of a human hair. To be able (or capable) of detecting a 6nS difference in sound waves the ear would need to be capable of measuring the distance between two pressure waves of 1.8 micron and I admit I do not know whether that is possible, I am highly sceptical, but receptive to plausible explanations.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 14:02
Hi,
 
Professor Dean ... when is the test?
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 14:05
Next Wednesday. Geek
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 18:58
The plausible explanation is a late night typo on my part, ms not ns. I am sorry for the confusion, however it does not change what I said. 16/44.1 cannot capture differences as fast as 6ms ( which is discussed in the interveiw).
Much bigger considerations like, the quality of the digital transfer, the mid to late 70s Analogue  " loudness Wars" , the Digital loudness Wars, error correction, block-wall at 22khz, & the threat of Digital Remastering.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2012 at 20:39
Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:

The plausible explanation is a late night typo on my part, ms not ns. I am sorry for the confusion, however it does not change what I said. 16/44.1 cannot capture differences as fast as 6ms ( which is discussed in the interveiw).
Ah, I started to listen to the video and gave up before they got to that part (people make glaring errors in interviews that they would not make in the written word, for example Sean Bevan said 44.1 sampling samples 44.1 times a second, when he meant 44,100 times a second - a simple slip of the tongue that he would not have made in print). Sampling at 44.1K equates to a sampling interval of 22.7µs which would yield 264 samples within 6ms, therefore 16/44K1 is perfectly capable of capturing differences as fast as 6ms.
 
However in the interview (which I have now listened to) he said 6µs, not 6ms (another slip of the tongue perhaps, but perhaps not because he is correct in saying 44.1KHz cannot capture 6µs), but that is also incorrect because our ears cannot resolve differences of 6µs - the best we can manage is around 600µs and only at a narrow range of high frequencies (certainly not drum kicks) - sampling at 44.1KHz can capture differences 600µs without problem.
 
Our ears are separated by roughly 0.15m and that corresponds to a time difference of 2ms for sound travelling at 300 m/s - how well we can locate sound (which is what we mean by detecting those differences) is determined by how much phase-change can occur in that time. So how well we can locate sound using that 2ms "resolution" is dependant on the frequency of the sound - we cannot locate low to lower-mid frequencies at all, (really, we're rubbish at it - that's why you only need 1 sub-woofer in a system) - because the phase-change in 2ms of lower frequencies is too small for us to detect - this is related to the wavelengths of sound but I won't bore everyone with that.
Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:


Much bigger considerations like, the quality of the digital transfer, the mid to late 70s Analogue  " loudness Wars" , the Digital loudness Wars, error correction, block-wall at 22khz, & the threat of Digital Remastering.
I think the effect of 22KHz brick-wall is over-stated - we're talking about psychoacoustic phenomena that has already happened before the recording was made, removing the supersonic frequencies that cause those "subtle perceptions" after recording will not remove the effect of them.
 
The quality of the digital transfer, the mid to late 70s Analogue  " loudness Wars" , the Digital loudness Wars, error correction, & the threat of Digital Remastering are all to do with how the technology is used, they are not limitations of the technology itself. But in principle I agree with you - using a technology badly (regardless of what that technology is) is much more of a concern.
 


Edited by Dean - October 27 2012 at 20:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 00:36
I disagree that you can't tell where a sub woofer is at.  While this may be true if only the ears are considered.. but you can feel the lower frequencies in the body.  This is why I ignore the argument that MP3 files are only giving us the usable frequencies of the human ear.

If I walk up to someone from behind and grab their shoulders and shake them, that would be about 5 hz?.. but they sure as hell would feel it.

If you want to properly listen to music.. you need big speakers. 

This crap that these small long throw subs move air the same way a 15 or 18 inch woofer does is BS. 
If you want to hear Greg Lakes bass parts, you need to play it back through a 15, because all those bassist back in the day put 15's in the cabinets because they knew it sounded better.  If it was played through a 15.... listen back through a 15.

If you listen to horns.. jazz.. early Crimson.. you need horn drivers or horn tweeters in your speaker rig.. because horns sound better being played back through horns.  I don't need to prove this.. it's common sense.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 00:46
Oh, and stop all the remastering.  Music is art.. and especially in progressive rock.  When they mixed these records.. there was a reason they presented the music the way they did.  It's like a recipe in a stew.  You don't add more potatoes and carrots just because people in the year 2012 want them.  It's grandma's recipe and you don't mess with her.

Not every producer wanted a kick drum to sound like Poison or Dream Theater.

When you are at the mixing board.. you start with the strongest track during any section and work the other tracks in from there. You don't mix an album with scientific measuring devices.  You use your ears.. and there is an art to this.
Mixing for an album should be the final live performance.  There is no need for automation.
The producers in any era did things for a reason, and historical music is also a slice of history.  Remixing a classic album is like painting over a Picasso.  A lot of people don't like Picasso, but they should not be redoing the work to fit their tastes.  Feel the musicians, feel the music, feel the time.. and listen on vinyl.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 03:21
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I disagree that you can't tell where a sub woofer is at.  While this may be true if only the ears are considered.. but you can feel the lower frequencies in the body.  This is why I ignore the argument that MP3 files are only giving us the usable frequencies of the human ear.

If I walk up to someone from behind and grab their shoulders and shake them, that would be about 5 hz?.. but they sure as hell would feel it.
Of course your body can feel subsonics - but whether they can tell the direction that sound is coming from is a completely different thing. The human body is not very good at telling the frequency that it is being vibrated at - what you "think" is 5Hz coming out of your bass speakers is more likely to be much higher than that.
 
Subwoofers, despite their name, are not designed for subsonics, they are designed for the range from 15Hz to 150Hz - they are basically small bass-bins. People who listen to digital music have subwoofers and they can feel the bass notes just as well as you can.
 
Vinyl LP records do not record subsonics - RIAA pre-emphasis removes the low frequencies below 20Hz, and unfortunately while the idealised RIAA de-emphasis curve should restore some of them, it is impossible to build a ideal RIAA filter, in reality this filter drops off as you go down in frequency from 20Hz - most plots of RIAA EQ phono amps start at 20Hz - the manufacturers don't show you what happens below 20Hz.
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


If you want to properly listen to music.. you need big speakers. 

This crap that these small long throw subs move air the same way a 15 or 18 inch woofer does is BS. 
If you want to hear Greg Lakes bass parts, you need to play it back through a 15, because all those bassist back in the day put 15's in the cabinets because they knew it sounded better.  If it was played through a 15.... listen back through a 15.
No argument from me. I don't like subwoofer's and prefer to have properly designed speakers that can reproduce the bass notes. I also prefer to choose speakers thst fit the environment they're to be used in, and 15 inch is too big for my house. But if you have a large room then go for it.
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


If you listen to horns.. jazz.. early Crimson.. you need horn drivers or horn tweeters in your speaker rig.. because horns sound better being played back through horns.  I don't need to prove this.. it's common sense.
No it isn't - that's not common sense at all, it's silly sense. LOL 
 


Edited by Dean - October 28 2012 at 03:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 03:46
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Oh, and stop all the remastering.  Music is art.. and especially in progressive rock.  When they mixed these records.. there was a reason they presented the music the way they did.  It's like a recipe in a stew.  You don't add more potatoes and carrots just because people in the year 2012 want them.  It's grandma's recipe and you don't mess with her.

Not every producer wanted a kick drum to sound like Poison or Dream Theater.

When you are at the mixing board.. you start with the strongest track during any section and work the other tracks in from there. You don't mix an album with scientific measuring devices.  You use your ears.. and there is an art to this.
Mixing for an album should be the final live performance.  There is no need for automation.
The producers in any era did things for a reason, and historical music is also a slice of history.  Remixing a classic album is like painting over a Picasso.  A lot of people don't like Picasso, but they should not be redoing the work to fit their tastes.  Feel the musicians, feel the music, feel the time.. and listen on vinyl.


Remastering and remixing are two different things that unfortunately have become colloquially termed "remastering" in marketing speak. The mastering stage is the final step in the process that occurs after the mixing that tailors the sound to suit the media that it will be recorded on to, ideally this should be done by a mastering engineer who wasn't involved in the mixing process - the mastering for vinyl is different to the mastering for CD - when transferring from one media to another the final mix should be remastered for the end media. [listen to the Sean Beavan interview that Mr "Aquiring the Taste" posted - he explains it rather well, and so he should - he's a brilliant producer even if he did make a few slip-of-the-tongue numerical errors in the interview].
 
Remixing is different process, and while I think that granny's stew can be altered to suit personal tastes, I do agree that antique recordings should not be altered to suit modern tastes of drum sound or guitar tone of whatever - unless the original artist or producer is present at the mix - they know what sound they wanted and they should be permitted to achieving or maintaining that on any remixing. The Picasso analogy is inaccurate because the remix/remaster does not destroy the original - you can always go back to an earlier release, you don't have to buy the remaster.
 
Some analogue mixing desks have automation (that's where the idea came from) and it is just a tool for the mixing engineer to use - live mixing is such fun, but having that "performance" recorded as automation is no different to recording and using the best take of a guitar solo.
 
But in general I agree with you: Feel the musicians, feel the music, feel the time.. and listen on whatever format you damn well like.


Edited by Dean - October 28 2012 at 05:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2012 at 05:04
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


If you want to hear Greg Lakes bass parts, you need to play it back through a 15, because all those bassist back in the day put 15's in the cabinets because they knew it sounded better.  If it was played through a 15.... listen back through a 15.
On stage Greg Lake uses two stacks of four JBL Bass Bins (a total of 4 bass and 4 mid-range drivers) powered from Crown DC300 1000W amplifiers (that solid-state amp is amazing - we used to use those to drive heavy industrial transducers that shake the cockpits in professional flight simulators to simulate engine vibrations and runway rumble).
If you really want that in your living room then go for it. Approve
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2012 at 17:58
PERHAPS VOLUME ONE

was recorded all analog

http://www.perhaps.bandcamp.com
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2012 at 19:38
The bigger the transducers the bigger the bass power you'll get. I've got a Bose Acoutimass 10 speaker sound system and that thing blows my head off. 1260 watts of total power output. The sub woofer alone is 550 watts of juice and has 10 bass settings 10 being the most powerful. 7/10 can vibrate the pictures on my wall. It's insane, but I've gotten so used to a big bright dynamic bass heavy sound, and I just can't imagine straying away from that kind of output. Also though, bigger doesn't always mean better, but it would be kind of cool to have the capability to have a MARTY McFLY moment in back to the future pt 1
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2012 at 03:36
^ You've got to be careful when quoting "total output power". The power out of a system can never exceed the (mains) input power, which for the Bose is quoted at 220W. Given that solid-state amps only convert 50-60% of the input power into output power (the rest is wasted as heat) then the maximum available output power could be as low as 100W. Your 1280 W is peak music power output (PMPO) - this is a marketing term that has no fixed rules or definition - typically this figure is 6 times the continuous power output, but in this case it appears to be 6 times the average input power. The Crown DC300 (for example) gives 1000 W of continuous power out (which as PMPO marketing speak could be misrepresented as 6000 W) 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2012 at 09:36
^ That is good info for him Dean.......Spot on. In normal listening levels my amp probably only gives me 20-30W, and when I crank it maybe 40-50W......but I doubt I would ever get to the 80wpc my amp is specd at. I could not imagine doing that level for a whole LP side Stern Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2012 at 10:52
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ You've got to be careful when quoting "total output power". The power out of a system can never exceed the (mains) input power, which for the Bose is quoted at 220W. Given that solid-state amps only convert 50-60% of the input power into output power (the rest is wasted as heat) then the maximum available output power could be as low as 100W. Your 1280 W is peak music power output (PMPO) - this is a marketing term that has no fixed rules or definition - typically this figure is 6 times the continuous power output, but in this case it appears to be 6 times the average input power. The Crown DC300 (for example) gives 1000 W of continuous power out (which as PMPO marketing speak could be misrepresented as 6000 W) 


What if you get a clean power bar? Would that help maximize efficient power while getting the most out of your electronics? Also, are you saying that some companies broadcast false information about the total watt output? Not sure. I guess maybe what your saying Is that most amps/sub woofers really only maximize a certain % of tech specifications listed. If that is the case, what are my options to blow the bloody doors off without overheating amp/woofer? Thanks Dean.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2012 at 11:00
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

^ That is good info for him Dean.......Spot on. In normal listening levels my amp probably only gives me 20-30W, and when I crank it maybe 40-50W......but I doubt I would ever get to the 80wpc my amp is specd at. I could not imagine doing that level for a whole LP side Stern Smile
It's even worse than that José. Smile 
 
The volume control on your amp is logarithmic - this means when it is set to maximum you get full voltage which equates to full power of 80W. Turn that down to the mid position (halfway) and the voltage is now reduced by a factor of 10, which means the power is reduced by a factor of 100 (P=V²/R) - or 0.8W. Turn the control down by ½ again (to ¼) and the power is down to ¼W.
 
While we all own powerful amps, we seldom use much more than 1/100th of their power output.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2012 at 11:14
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ You've got to be careful when quoting "total output power". The power out of a system can never exceed the (mains) input power, which for the Bose is quoted at 220W. Given that solid-state amps only convert 50-60% of the input power into output power (the rest is wasted as heat) then the maximum available output power could be as low as 100W. Your 1280 W is peak music power output (PMPO) - this is a marketing term that has no fixed rules or definition - typically this figure is 6 times the continuous power output, but in this case it appears to be 6 times the average input power. The Crown DC300 (for example) gives 1000 W of continuous power out (which as PMPO marketing speak could be misrepresented as 6000 W) 


What if you get a clean power bar? Would that help maximize efficient power while getting the most out of your electronics? Also, are you saying that some companies broadcast false information about the total watt output? Not sure. I guess maybe what your saying Is that most amps/sub woofers really only maximize a certain % of tech specifications listed. If that is the case, what are my options to blow the bloody doors off without overheating amp/woofer? Thanks Dean.
Nothing you can do can make that system pump out a continuous 1280 W of power. It isn't a matter of efficiency or cooling because even running at 100% efficiency the amplifiers would only deliver 220 W into the speakers. Also the speakers themselves are not designed to handle that much continuous power ... the speaker in your sub is 5.25 inches in diameter ... do you really believe that can handle 550 W of continuous power?
 
The amplifiers can deliver 1280W into the speakers for a very short duration of time - for a sharp peak in the music. This instantaneous power comes from reservoir capacitors in the power supply not from the incoming supply - these capacitors cannot provide continuous power ... you use all their energy in the peak then recharge them during the quieter bits ready for the next peak.
 
I believe the manufacturers are being dishonest when they quote peak music power - this is a marketing ploy that is pretty much exclusively confined to the home theatre market and 5.1 speaker system - the hi-fi market generally quotes RMS or continuous power.
 
 
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