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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 10:08
Many wealthy people got that way from government handouts and protections. The libertarian movement reserves a healthy bit of scorn for the wealthy. It's a party of populist rhetoric. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 10:26
Nice sig.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 10:31
Thanks?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 10:32
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Sorry I missed that point. There's no viable left wing party here because the people simply don't want it. It's a middle-right country. People are also too apathetic to consider a third party, so any ideological change is painful.

Rob supports a lot of libertarian ideas, but so do most people. You probably support many of them when it comes to civil liberties. However, by his own admission he is no libertarian. He supports a municipal health care system and a consumption tax!


That's right. Rob's locally funded and federalist health care system was too lefty for you. Ya know, being funded by taxes on all!
Damn that tax being theft.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 10:39
Government is the negation of liberty.
 
Order is the negation of entropy. Tautology.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 10:44
I agree that the first is.

I sort of agree that the second is, but we have to be careful what order means.

Thank you for agreeing with me though. I also quite like the quote.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 10:44
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Government is the negation of liberty.
 
Order is the negation of entropy. Tautology.
 
 
That'd be a fine statement if government created order or had the power to rid life of uncertainties.
 
Edit: guess this depends on your tone and what you meant with your use of the word "tautology".  I took your posts as sarcasm but I could be wrong.  It's hard to tell when you can't see the person, this is why I only play live poker.


Edited by manofmystery - September 28 2010 at 10:49


Time always wins.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 11:01

At first I thought the statement was lame rhetoric, but I sat back and thought about it.

Total freedom is life without rule (anarchy).
 
Any kind of rule (government) defines the limits we place on our freedom of choice.
 
Some of us think that some limits are necessary (most I think). For the most part, the argument is just how much and what will it look like. To my knowledge, this includes even most libertarians. It's just that they are on the Very Little Government end of the spectrum.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 11:10
I think libertarians are pretty evenly split between Anarcho-Capitalists and minimal government.

You just agreed with the premise though. As government grows, personal freedom decreases.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 11:38

Without systems theory (you know me) I think the statement is a truism.

With systems theory, a society with a well-functioning infrastructure (which will necessarily limit some individual freedoms) will allow for possibilities in choice that never existed without the infrastructure.
 
(Without individuals subjugating their needs to business owners none of our modern luxuries would exist.)
 
So I will extend your statement...
 
All Social Organization is essentially the negation of liberty.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 12:31
That's not true. A shop is a social organization, but it does lessen liberty. Anyone who has any association with the shop does so of their own free will. The shop can only engage in contracts between agreeing parties. Liberty is in no way defeated. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 12:48
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


Wrong again. There are roughly 15% of Americans below the poverty line, and roughly the same amount earning more than $100,000 a year. Roughly 22% of Americans are in the lowest fifth or earners, and roughly 22% are in the highest fifth. No matter how you count it, that is not "oodles more." And since the highest fifth consume vastly more than the lowest fifth, they will pay the majority of taxes.

Also, I am actually using data in my analysis, instead of vague suppositions.
I think you may have misread the data (or I haveEmbarrassed) - surely 20% of Americans are in the each fifth?
 

No. Why would you think that?
Because it's the top and bottom fifth of earners, not earnings. Confused

Sorry I didn't read his post, I was looking at the cited data.

He meant earnings from the context and the data he provided.

How?

 

From the context if the highest fifth consumes vastly more it must be earning vastly more - if it was a fifth of earnings they would be earning exactly the same. 

 

If it was a fifth of earnings then it is impossible for the upper fifth to contain the same number of people as the lower fifth - 1 person earning $100K is the same as 5 people earning $20K each.

 

From the data in the post if the top and bottom fifths are 22% each then the middle three would be less than 19% each and the distribution would be a bathtub (and it isn't).

 

From the data provided, (actual data taken from US 2005 data, wiki copied it incorrectly, got the percentages wrong, then linked to the wrong year's data), if 15% of the households are below the poverty threshold then the 15% who earn over $100/yr account for 43% of total earnings while the lower 15% account for 2.1% of earnings.

  

From the same data the lower quintile (20%) of earnings accounts for ~50% of earners.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 13:13
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

That's not true. A shop is a social organization, but it does lessen liberty. Anyone who has any association with the shop does so of their own free will. The shop can only engage in contracts between agreeing parties. Liberty is in no way defeated. 

Of course it does. A shop decrease my ability to have the things I want. It says I must engage in a formalised exchange ritual in order to obtain what I want, rather than just taking it. 

IMO, the libertarian position breaks down with its choice not to put the same scrutiny on the social convention of property rights that it does on other ideas. Similarly, "Government" is given extra scrutiny over other social structures that concentrate power. 

For acting like you're thinking outside the box, you libertarians cling to some traditions like Reb Tevye.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 13:41
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


You only prove what I've been saying all along: Creating and managing a wealth is a skill most of us do not have.  Also, how many businesses fail because of a lack of a free market economy?
Businesses that cannot compete within a mixed economy have at best an equal chance of failure in a free market economy. I can't see any real reason why free market economy would profit bad business any more than a mixed economy would.
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


The government shows consistent and massive failure- not one chance to get it right.  It has a permanent chance to get it right, and it almost never does.
It has an impermanent chance to get it right - it has two years to get it right and two years to prepare to have another chance to get it right should they survive to the next term - even when government has survived two terms it has not been able to apply policies consistently over that extended period. Unfortunately most governments appear to operate a pseudo-democratic style of management that vacillates between laissez-faire management (hands-off) and management by crisis (panic).
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 17:09
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

If income tax is wrong because it taxes you on what you earn, isn't consumption tax in danger of taxing you on what you haven't earnt if you buy on credit? (I don't mean irresponsible credit and credit-card overspend, I mean using legitimate, budgeted loans or taking advantage of interest-free credit deals)

At which point in the manufacturing process does consumption tax begin or end? Do I pay tax on the tree from the logging company because I am going to consume the tree to make wood pulp? Do I pay tax on the wood pulp from the pulper because I am going to consume the pulp to make paper? Do I pay tax on the paper from the paper mill because I am going to consume the paper to make books? Do I pay tax on the stock of books I bought from the publisher I'm going to sell in my bookshop? If I go into a bookshop to buy a book, whose tax bill do I pay?
 
With consumption tax you need to know where in the process the production stops and the consumption begins - In the above example I could have bought the tree to make logs to burn on my log fire, I could have bought wood-pulp to make into fire bricks to burn on my fire, I could have bought paper from the paper-mill for kindling to light my wood-stove. At each stage I would be the end-user and liable to tax, the wood-pulper, paper-miller and the publisher are not the end-users so not liable to tax - the logging company would need to know the end-use of each tree so it would know whether to charge tax or not.
 
If any of those manufacturers are exempt consumption tax on the consumables they use in the manufacturing process, does that extend to all the consumables they use in managing their business? Do they pay consumption tax on the PC they run pay-roll on or the trucks they bought to transport the goods they make or the coffee they brew in the staff canteen?
 
Then what of consumption of services - do I pay tax at a laundry? do I pay tax on parts and labour to a heating "engineer" who fixes my boiler? In my book example do I pay consumption tax on the manuscript I bought from the author? Of course these particular examples are all forms of income tax - the heating technician charges me his hourly-rate for his labour (wage) - if that is taxed then his income is being taxed - for the self-employed income-tax is the same as consumption tax - just seen from a different direction.
 
 


Considering we have a federal and state income tax as well as property tax and sales tax already, how is your first paragraph relevant?  Most of us are paying all these things at once (among other taxes).

As for when taxes begin and end, the same can be said of income tax.  If I earn money, I pay a tax on it.  If I invest the money leftover, I pay a tax on my dividends or interest.  If I die and bequeath money to my son, he pays a tax on it.  And so on.  Even if you spend it, you pay a tax on it. 

As for the third paragraph, we already pay a consumption tax in the USA.  So I don't see how it would be a problem to eliminate income tax and replace it with a non-intrusive consumption tax.

Fourth paragraph I've already answered: We already have a consumption tax.

Fifth paragraph is details that can easily be worked out.  I'm sure a consumption tax would be far less troublesome than the federal tax code we have now.
I thought this was a hypothetical discussion on replacing all those taxes with a single consumption tax so my first paragraph was perhaps frivolous, but not so the others - if all those taxes are dispensed with and the equivalent sum transfered over to consumption tax then we need to know where that tax will be applied and collected and where it doesn't.
 
This makes every seller a tax collector who pays all the tax he's collected to the tax office and claims back all the tax he's paid in the course of doing business. Of course consumption tax in the form of sales tax and VAT already exist, but not at the percentages that a single national sales tax would require to replace all other taxation.
 
I understand your requirement for this system is to have a smaller government and hence lower overall tax bill, but if the aim is to replace a multitude of different taxes with one single inclusive tax then we need to know where in the whole economy this tax is going to be applied. What I was attempting to get across is that consumption is just as complex as income and will become more complex when it is the only taxation method. 
 
You have already listed food as being tax exempt, if we add to that all the intermediate exemptions I've already discussed, then what of all the other necessities for life: pharmaceuticals (prescription and/or over-the-counter)? female sanitary products? do we tax children's clothing? some book or all books, text books, worship books? are haulage companies and travelling salesmen exempt from consumption tax on fuel? what of prepared food from a restaurant? do we tax pet food but not livestock foodstuffs?
 
Once you transfer the role of tax collector over to the retailer then all the complexity of the system becomes his responsibility, and he will make you pay for that by charging the extra cost of his administration and/or extra accountants needed onto the goods he sells so the price increase is more than simply the value of the tax itself. Of course the same thing can happen with any taxation - it depends on who collects the money and pays it to the revenue service - the ideal would be to have the tax collectors at the far end of the line where they cannot pass on the cost of collection to anyone else - but as income tax collection has demonstrated, once that cash sum is in their hands there is a pain-barrier to overcome in persuading them to give "their" money to the revenue service.
 
At the end of the day it doesn't matter where the tax is collected or how big the government is - if it exists at all and requires z million dollars funding then that money will be collected in total - what you are discussing is how that is apportioned through the population. If someone pays less tax for whatever reason or circumstance then someone else will pay more as a direct consequence because the net yield has to remain at z millions.
 
If the rich pay more income tax by earning more or they pay more consumption tax by consuming more in principle it shouldn't make any difference, but the reality is that it will - TheLlama has already illustrated the deadweight loss associated with income-tax (when tax is removed wages will drop) - the same applies to consumption tax - once the price of goods increases through sales-tax then the demand will decrease and it will decrease more on expensive (luxury) items (where the fixed percentage tax just means paying more dollars per item - the buying public does not think in percentages it thinks in dollars and cents). Even if there is more disposable income as a result of income tax reducing to zero, there is a psychological effect of prices increasing as a result of sales tax to overcome regardless of how much money you have in the bank. If people don't like paying income tax, then they don't like paying any tax and will not be fooled by the ruse that consumption tax is fairer, because no tax is fair (in their estimation).
 
What you are doing is shuffling the effects of taxation around the population looking for the largest sector that will either complain the least or have the least influence on the overall economy.
 
Where consumption tax wins is that it is difficult for the ordinary citizen to avoid it and practically impossible to evade it. Where it loses is that it puts the burden of tax collection on the small businesses (ie retailers) who can least afford it and who are least skilled at managing it. To make tax collection simpler it should be moved up the supply chain, not down it - it is easier and more efficient to collect larges sums of cash from a small number of suppliers than it is to collect small sums from a large number. This could overcome the psychological tax pain-barrier effect - the price of final goods may increase by exactly the same percentage, but if it not regarded as a direct taxation then people will be less reluctant to pay it.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 17:32
The notion that any change in the tax system will result in the wealthy paying more and the poor paying less is basically absurd.  
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 18:56
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

If income tax is wrong because it taxes you on what you earn, isn't consumption tax in danger of taxing you on what you haven't earnt if you buy on credit? (I don't mean irresponsible credit and credit-card overspend, I mean using legitimate, budgeted loans or taking advantage of interest-free credit deals)

At which point in the manufacturing process does consumption tax begin or end? Do I pay tax on the tree from the logging company because I am going to consume the tree to make wood pulp? Do I pay tax on the wood pulp from the pulper because I am going to consume the pulp to make paper? Do I pay tax on the paper from the paper mill because I am going to consume the paper to make books? Do I pay tax on the stock of books I bought from the publisher I'm going to sell in my bookshop? If I go into a bookshop to buy a book, whose tax bill do I pay?
 
With consumption tax you need to know where in the process the production stops and the consumption begins - In the above example I could have bought the tree to make logs to burn on my log fire, I could have bought wood-pulp to make into fire bricks to burn on my fire, I could have bought paper from the paper-mill for kindling to light my wood-stove. At each stage I would be the end-user and liable to tax, the wood-pulper, paper-miller and the publisher are not the end-users so not liable to tax - the logging company would need to know the end-use of each tree so it would know whether to charge tax or not.
 
If any of those manufacturers are exempt consumption tax on the consumables they use in the manufacturing process, does that extend to all the consumables they use in managing their business? Do they pay consumption tax on the PC they run pay-roll on or the trucks they bought to transport the goods they make or the coffee they brew in the staff canteen?
 
Then what of consumption of services - do I pay tax at a laundry? do I pay tax on parts and labour to a heating "engineer" who fixes my boiler? In my book example do I pay consumption tax on the manuscript I bought from the author? Of course these particular examples are all forms of income tax - the heating technician charges me his hourly-rate for his labour (wage) - if that is taxed then his income is being taxed - for the self-employed income-tax is the same as consumption tax - just seen from a different direction.
 
 


Considering we have a federal and state income tax as well as property tax and sales tax already, how is your first paragraph relevant?  Most of us are paying all these things at once (among other taxes).

As for when taxes begin and end, the same can be said of income tax.  If I earn money, I pay a tax on it.  If I invest the money leftover, I pay a tax on my dividends or interest.  If I die and bequeath money to my son, he pays a tax on it.  And so on.  Even if you spend it, you pay a tax on it. 

As for the third paragraph, we already pay a consumption tax in the USA.  So I don't see how it would be a problem to eliminate income tax and replace it with a non-intrusive consumption tax.

Fourth paragraph I've already answered: We already have a consumption tax.

Fifth paragraph is details that can easily be worked out.  I'm sure a consumption tax would be far less troublesome than the federal tax code we have now.
I thought this was a hypothetical discussion on replacing all those taxes with a single consumption tax so my first paragraph was perhaps frivolous, but not so the others - if all those taxes are dispensed with and the equivalent sum transfered over to consumption tax then we need to know where that tax will be applied and collected and where it doesn't.
 
This makes every seller a tax collector who pays all the tax he's collected to the tax office and claims back all the tax he's paid in the course of doing business. Of course consumption tax in the form of sales tax and VAT already exist, but not at the percentages that a single national sales tax would require to replace all other taxation.
 
I understand your requirement for this system is to have a smaller government and hence lower overall tax bill, but if the aim is to replace a multitude of different taxes with one single inclusive tax then we need to know where in the whole economy this tax is going to be applied. What I was attempting to get across is that consumption is just as complex as income and will become more complex when it is the only taxation method. 
 
You have already listed food as being tax exempt, if we add to that all the intermediate exemptions I've already discussed, then what of all the other necessities for life: pharmaceuticals (prescription and/or over-the-counter)? female sanitary products? do we tax children's clothing? some book or all books, text books, worship books? are haulage companies and travelling salesmen exempt from consumption tax on fuel? what of prepared food from a restaurant? do we tax pet food but not livestock foodstuffs?
 
Once you transfer the role of tax collector over to the retailer then all the complexity of the system becomes his responsibility, and he will make you pay for that by charging the extra cost of his administration and/or extra accountants needed onto the goods he sells so the price increase is more than simply the value of the tax itself. Of course the same thing can happen with any taxation - it depends on who collects the money and pays it to the revenue service - the ideal would be to have the tax collectors at the far end of the line where they cannot pass on the cost of collection to anyone else - but as income tax collection has demonstrated, once that cash sum is in their hands there is a pain-barrier to overcome in persuading them to give "their" money to the revenue service.
 
At the end of the day it doesn't matter where the tax is collected or how big the government is - if it exists at all and requires z million dollars funding then that money will be collected in total - what you are discussing is how that is apportioned through the population. If someone pays less tax for whatever reason or circumstance then someone else will pay more as a direct consequence because the net yield has to remain at z millions.
 
If the rich pay more income tax by earning more or they pay more consumption tax by consuming more in principle it shouldn't make any difference, but the reality is that it will - TheLlama has already illustrated the deadweight loss associated with income-tax (when tax is removed wages will drop) - the same applies to consumption tax - once the price of goods increases through sales-tax then the demand will decrease and it will decrease more on expensive (luxury) items (where the fixed percentage tax just means paying more dollars per item - the buying public does not think in percentages it thinks in dollars and cents). Even if there is more disposable income as a result of income tax reducing to zero, there is a psychological effect of prices increasing as a result of sales tax to overcome regardless of how much money you have in the bank. If people don't like paying income tax, then they don't like paying any tax and will not be fooled by the ruse that consumption tax is fairer, because no tax is fair (in their estimation).
 
What you are doing is shuffling the effects of taxation around the population looking for the largest sector that will either complain the least or have the least influence on the overall economy.
 
Where consumption tax wins is that it is difficult for the ordinary citizen to avoid it and practically impossible to evade it. Where it loses is that it puts the burden of tax collection on the small businesses (ie retailers) who can least afford it and who are least skilled at managing it. To make tax collection simpler it should be moved up the supply chain, not down it - it is easier and more efficient to collect larges sums of cash from a small number of suppliers than it is to collect small sums from a large number. This could overcome the psychological tax pain-barrier effect - the price of final goods may increase by exactly the same percentage, but if it not regarded as a direct taxation then people will be less reluctant to pay it.
 


Yes, smaller government means less tax.

Now, just as complex and will become more complicated?  No way.  Dean, have you seen our federal tax code?  Apparently not.  A consumption tax is 1) not an invasion of privacy, 2) eliminates deductions completely, and 3) is nearly impossible to avoid.  It means almost no paperwork (relative to what we have now) and thus fewer agents needed to manage government revenue, meaning a decrease in government costs.

You are trying to muddy things up.  These are mere details that can be worked out.  I'm not sitting here trying to figure every detail when my system probably won't come to pass anyway.  All I ask is how my general idea (which others have shared) is inferior to what we have now.  And if this idea is better, why don't we have it?

As for what else you are saying...we already have a consumption tax.  Companies already have to do this.  Eliminating income tax will do them a service. Ridding ourselves of the ultra-complicated income and corporation tax will save companies a fortune.

Yes, it matters how big our government is.  Did you not pay attention to anything I had to say about how our government functions?  The feds spend more than they bring in.  We don't have a balanced budget.  That means your 6th paragraph is nonsense. 

Your seventh paragraph is the worst.  Demand hasn't decreased due to higher prices.  Our government has increased the cost of almost everything through minimum wage increases.  People still buy.  People will still buy.  We've proven that too.  Were a consumption tax in place in lieu of every other tax, then businesses can grow because ultimately (if the business chooses to operate in this way), the end user will be paying all the taxes.  But that's no different than how it already is...because...*

Your last paragraph fails because...*we already have consumption taxes here. 

We already have federal and state income tax, consumption tax, property tax, estate tax, and a host of other taxes.  Nothing you have said troubles my position, because we have all these things.  A simple consumption tax will be far simpler and far superior.

No one has shown why a consumption tax is a poor alternative to what we already have.  Any takers?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 18:58
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

The notion that any change in the tax system will result in the wealthy paying more and the poor paying less is basically absurd.  


Our current tax system doesn't help the poor either.

Show how what you say is true.  Go.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 18:58
You mean any new takers?

We've already battled Rob but I'll gladly put it out there again. Smile
Eh, I'll leave it up to the new wavers LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 19:01
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

You mean any new takers?

We've already battled Rob but I'll gladly put it out there again. Smile
Eh, I'll leave it up to the new wavers LOL


I heard your voice this morning.

I know you're stupid.  Tongue
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