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Easy Livin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Livin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2007 at 03:57
I have moved the posts re IPOF's reviews to the reviews discussion, as clearly there is no suggestion of them being "inappropriate".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2007 at 05:37
This is rather a sweet review, don't you think?


EMERSON LAKE & PALMER (ELP) — Brain Salad Surgery
Review by Jeams Pfirp (Ray Donavan DeAngelo) 5 stars Emerson Lake & Palmer released a great album in 1973, which was Brain Salad Surgery. This supergroup impresses me, and this album doesn't go against that, especially Karn Evil 9. So, here goes the individual song ratings.

Jerusalem: ***** I like how it celebrates about being in England. It is a 5-star song, despite being only 2:44.

Toccata: ***** This song expresses talent from the people that are part of Emerson Lake & Palmer. Each of the riffs are pretty skilled and it's like an up-tempo song to me.

Still... You Turn Me On: **** It is a pretty song, but it could be longer.

Benny the Bouncer: **** Even though it's 2:18, this is a fun song about a fight that Benny the Bouncer lost (sorry if I spoiled it to the people that haven't heard it or read it's lyrics). I like it when it's said that "He buried an axe in Benny's head" instead of the boring, "He chopped Benny's head.

Karn Evil 9: ***** This is the best song on the entire album. It's 29:32, and so far, it's the longest song I've ever heard. Saturday, though, the record will be broken by Cassandra Gemini by The Mars Volta. To the review. There are lots of instrumental passages, which are really good. In some parts of Impression 2, you're in a jungle, then you enter a haunted mansion, that's what it feels like. And the song has a happy ending. If you haven't yet, listen to all 29:32 of this song promptly!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote memowakeman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2007 at 11:37
Thanks Bob, i dont want to make a big deal and a big discussion about that, but i think that a hugely exaggerated review doesn´t mean that is a good review, nor the very short ones either, i have read several Clem´s and Rico´s reviews which are also long but excellent, but this just made me feel like this...Disapprove
 
 

Follow me on twitter @memowakeman
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trickster F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2007 at 12:01
I've got a question inspired by some Guigo's remarks. If a member writes a review that does not suit the acceptable quality for the site and eventually gets deleted, he is offered, formally or not, to write an enhanced one. Would you mind telling me how often it happens that the member indeed writes another review that is a ok for the site's standards instead of simply disappearing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Livin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2007 at 12:06
Hard to put figures on it T, but most reviewers are very receptive to constructive feedback.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atkingani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2007 at 14:23
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Hard to put figures on it T, but most reviewers are very receptive to constructive feedback.
 
Yes... and I shall add that new reviewers that intend to do a "career" in PA, are generally the most receptive. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2007 at 15:56
Beauty will save the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ghandi 2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2007 at 22:15
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

     Well, as I will write in my new review, now I strongly disagree with the choice for album of the year.

Even though I liked it, I did find that entertaining, and I certainly can't accuse you of half-assing a review just to bash an album.

How many times did you listen to Dowsing before you wrote that review?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2007 at 23:44
Originally posted by Ghandi 2 Ghandi 2 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

     Well, as I will write in my new review, now I strongly disagree with the choice for album of the year.

Even though I liked it, I did find that entertaining, and I certainly can't accuse you of half-assing a review just to bash an album.

How many times did you listen to Dowsing before you wrote that review?
 
Three, and then another one while I was writing. Thank you for that, and also great that you disagree. That's what this is all about.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richeym Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2007 at 04:41
The album requires way more than 3 or 4 listens if you're not used to that type of music.

I first heard their _Choirs of the Eye_ in 2004. It took me until late 2005 for it to 'truly' click and make it my favourite album of all time. Bear in mind I was already a big fan of maudlin of the Well.

 IMO, anyone who doesn't have much positive to say about DAWCT after a few listens shouldn't be writing a review - the music is far far too dense to be able to judge so quickly.

Kayo Dot are my favourite artist (along with Diamanda Galas), and it pleases me that they've been voted album of the year on this site - not least because it'll give them more publicity and more album sales so they may hopefully helped out of their financial situation which has been a bit sh*t for the last few years.



edit: OMG Mr T

I just read your 'review' of DAWCT and I must say I'm somewhat insulted as a Kayo Dot fan that you've written such a steaming pile of rubbish about them. A few points, as if I try and refute everything you said I'd be here all day:

http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=108084

1. Kayo Dot are not 'post metal' - yes, a lot of their stuff is akin to the other sounds commonly found in that genre, but they are way way more avant garde than your average post metal band. If Kayo Dot are post metal, then all the other bands are doing it wrong.

2. You're blatently not a fan of anything like Kayo Dot or any form of 'post' rock/metal (I've seen your incredibly low ratings and slanderous Sigur Ros and Agalloch reviews (GSYBE! are the exception, but they're still nothing like KD). What really gives you a right to judge an album so harshly when it's a matter of taste and it's just that you don't like it. They're pretty damn far removed from post rock/metal - they just get lumped under that as no-one knows what to call them. Aesthetically, they're probably more like jazz or classical in their approach.

3. Maybe you have to be 'stoned' to enhance your listening pleasure of certain bands, but I assure you Kayo Dot fans do not.

4. If you can't see the structure and the fine songwriting of the songs on DAWCT, then that is your problem, not the bands.

5. 3 songs get ratings of 5, 6, and 8.5 out of 10 from you, whilst two get ratings of 1. How does that equate to an overall average of 1 out of 5 for the whole album? Do the maths. They have received from you 23.5 out of a possible 50 points. If anything, it makes their average score a solid 2 star review, not a 1 star.

6. Even more to the point, how can your only mention of the vocals in _Amaranth The Peddler_ be "When the vocals and the drums make their appearance, we're already too scared of the final outcome of the song, as we see that it lasts 14 minutes"? You completely fail to mention how sublime the vocal melodies are in this section.

7. BAD REVIEW. I'm sorry, but it really is a bad review and not in the slightest bit objective. It's simply an immature close-minded tirade about a band you don't understand. Was it meant to be an interesting/insightful/humourous review? If it was, it failed on all levels. I'd expect more from a 'journalism student'.

If you want to hear the tightly written songs Toby has written, check out the albums he made under the name maudlin of the Well (death metal, sludge, prog metal, classical, jazz, etc), or some of the songs off of the first KD album. DAWCT is by far their most avant and meandering release. Also, give it more than '3 or 4' listens - it's surely obvious to you that an album like DAWCT isn't something that anyone can get on the initial listens?


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

    Well, as I will write in my new review, now I strongly disagree with the choice for album of the year.
Then you risk that your review will be deleted. A review is supposed to describe one particular album, it's not a platform for complaints.


I know that. Don't worry, read it and you'll see I review the album and make my arguments very clear. Not bashing for bashing's sake, so to speak.

I wouldn't like my review to be deleted just because I don't agree with the "album of the year"... If one of my reviews is ever deleted, I hope it would be because it's insulting, has no coherence, is just a bashing post disguised as review, or something like that.

EDIT: But you'll never see me writing like that. No unless I get intoxicated with mushrooms that weren't supossed to be eaten.

     
    


uuuh, that was an insulting, incoherent bashing post.


Edited by richeym - January 23 2007 at 16:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passionist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2007 at 07:55
not to be pushy or anything, but when I read reviews in order to find out what the album is like, there's usually a list of very short reviews with someone only saying they like it or that they don't like it, which isn't really very informative. I usually dig up one that is long and is somewhat the same in stars as the average. but 75 words is a bit vague in my opinion, because frankly, to me, these are completely useless. I'm not saying I do better, but I try to at least write over 300 words. If I don't have more to say, then I'd rather not write in vain. Just my 2 cents after reading a full page of reviews on one record.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2007 at 14:26
Originally posted by Passionist Passionist wrote:

not to be pushy or anything, but when I read reviews in order to find out what the album is like, there's usually a list of very short reviews with someone only saying they like it or that they don't like it, which isn't really very informative. I usually dig up one that is long and is somewhat the same in stars as the average. but 75 words is a bit vague in my opinion, because frankly, to me, these are completely useless. I'm not saying I do better, but I try to at least write over 300 words. If I don't have more to say, then I'd rather not write in vain. Just my 2 cents after reading a full page of reviews on one record.


I agree with this partially... I think a good review CAN be done with just a few words, but that would require quite a concise, superbly-written explanation as to the arguments for the rating (for example, describing the album's sound an why the reviewer did or did not like it).

But of course I prefer longer reviews, reviews that say something about the music in detail, that show that the listener actually respect the readers as much as to care to write a competent essay (that's what reviews are in the end, essays. Or that's what they SHOULD be). I don't like reviews (I would say "reviews") where the "reviewer" says "I like A because it's great and it's cool and it made me feel fine and..."....So what? That's telling us his personal feelings about something without trying first to tell us what that something is!    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2007 at 18:13
Man! It would seem I attacked a member of your family or something! I'm sure not even the members of Kayo Dot would be so angry!! Well, let's lose a few minutes of my timeand try to answer your full-of-love post ASAP.  Just to show when I say I stand for freedom and divergence of opinions, I MEAN it.
 
(ADMIN: I think this topic has turned into a "let's agree or not with TheT's review"...Could it be closed? 
 
Originally posted by richeym richeym wrote:

The album requires way more than 3 or 4 listens if you're not used to that type of music.
I gave it 4, then I gave it a couple more just before hitting the submit button, and I was as bored as always.

I first heard their _Choirs of the Eye_ in 2004. It took me until late 2005 for it to 'truly' click and make it my favourite album of all time. Bear in mind I was already a big fan of maudlin of the Well.
 
Yes, good for you. But that doesn't mean it ALWAYS happens. So if I make you listen one album, say, 20 times, is it a sure thing that you will like it? I don't think so. Besides, this is not a Shostakovich symphony that requires too many listens.... It's ROCK, and rock,FOR ME, should "click" faster than that. I really envy you for your liking Kayo Dot. I just can't.  
 
 IMO, anyone who doesn't have much positive to say about DAWCT after a few listens shouldn't be writing a review - the music is far far too dense to be able to judge so quickly.
Well, my friend, sorry but this makes no sense. So, IF A PERSON DOESN'T LIKE AN ALBUM, HE SHOULDN'T COMMENT ON IT? My God, we would have only 5 star reviews! (maybe 4).... And, anyway, do we apply that principle to every band, or just Kayo Dot? Well, let's make it a rule: EITHER YOU GIVE THIS ALBUM A 5, OR YOU DON'T REVIEW IT. Also, I HAVE something positive to say about KD: didn't you see I praise their third song? I say they could make better music (FOR MY TASTE THAT IS) hearing how they play their instruments.

Kayo Dot are my favourite artist (along with Diamanda Galas), and it pleases me that they've been voted album of the year on this site - not least because it'll give them more publicity and more album sales so they may hopefully helped out of their financial situation which has been a bit sh*t for the last few years.
OK, that's great! More bands and more music is always for the better! I just happened to commit the crime of NOT LIKING THEIR ALBUM. But I could'n agree more: good that they overcome their financial crisis. Did I do anything against that??? Could I?  Confused


edit: OMG Mr T

I just read your 'review' of DAWCT and I must say I'm somewhat insulted as a Kayo Dot fan that you've written such a steaming pile of rubbish about them. A few points, as if I try and refute everything you said I'd be here all day:
 
Oh, a "steaming pile of rubbish"... Good start for someone who feels insulted....

http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=108084

1. Kayo Dot are not 'post metal' - yes, a lot of their stuff is akin to the other sounds commonly found in that genre, but they are way way more avant garde than your average post metal band. If Kayo Dot are post metal, then all the other bands are doing it wrong.
 
MAn! Finally someone who knows what band fits in what genre EXACTLY!!!Wink From MY EXPERIENCE, their sound is close to that of other post-sludge-stoner-whatever metal bands, with differences of course, IF NOT THEY WOULD BE COPYISTS.

2. You're blatently not a fan of anything like Kayo Dot or any form of 'post' rock/metal (I've seen your incredibly low ratings and slanderous Sigur Ros and Agalloch reviews (GSYBE! are the exception, but they're still nothing like KD). What really gives you a right to judge an album so harshly when it's a matter of taste and it's just that you don't like it.
Thank you my dearest friend, you just said it yourself: I have the right to judge it exactly BECAUSE IT'S A MATTER OF TASTE. If there were scientific facts to help me judge an album, I would use them. But this is a matter of taste. I HAVE THE RIGHT. AS LONG AS I DON'T ABUSE IT, I HAVE THAT RIGHT.
 
 They're pretty damn far removed from post rock/metal - they just get lumped under that as no-one knows what to call them. Aesthetically, they're probably more like jazz or classical in their approach.
 
Ok, fair enough. I'm not reviewing their "label", just their music. If they are not post, OK!!!  FINE!!! I still DON'T LIKE IT.

3. Maybe you have to be 'stoned' to enhance your listening pleasure of certain bands, but I assure you Kayo Dot fans do not.
 
That's the only point in my review where I may have exceeded myself. Sorry then. I'm big enough to ask for your eternal forgiveness

4. If you can't see the structure and the fine songwriting of the songs on DAWCT, then that is your problem, not the bands.
 
I will say that then to everyone that ever wrote a bad review (a low-rating review that is, because a bad review is just something else) about something I like: "Oh, you didn't like band X? You gave it 1-star? You can't understand it! It's your problem!!!"   You know, you speak of insult, and then you say I didn't like KD because I didn't get it. That's... insulting???
 
5. 3 songs get ratings of 5, 6, and 8.5 out of 10 from you, whilst two get ratings of 1. How does that equate to an overall average of 1 out of 5 for the whole album? Do the maths. They have received from you 23.5 out of a possible 50 points. If anything, it makes their average score a solid 2 star review, not a 1 star.
 
Yeah my friedn but you have to understand that I don't do things that way, and many people neither. I rate each song, but then I give the rating according to the DEFINITION of what that rating means: for example, 3stars: good, not essential; 2stars: collectors/fans only. For example, I rated each one of Foxtrot's songs with less than 10, a few with 8s, but then I gave the album a 5. It's what I do. There are NO GUIDELINES explaining that we should follow math rules. Man, relax.  

6. Even more to the point, how can your only mention of the vocals in _Amaranth The Peddler_ be "When the vocals and the drums make their appearance, we're already too scared of the final outcome of the song, as we see that it lasts 14 minutes"? You completely fail to mention how sublime the vocal melodies are in this section.
 
No my friend, I didn't. FOR ME those vocals weren't sublime, but atrocious. A review is a SUBJECTIVE TAKE ON SOMETHING, I HAVE NOT THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH... BUT NEITHER DO YOU NOR ANYBODY ELSE.

7. BAD REVIEW. I'm sorry, but it really is a bad review and not in the slightest bit objective. It's simply an immature close-minded tirade about a band you don't understand. Was it meant to be an interesting/insightful/humourous review? If it was, it failed on all levels. I'd expect more from a 'journalism student'.
It's objective in what could be called objective, because as I said, reviews are a subjective thing. Let's say, I was OBJECTIVE IN MY SUBJECTIVITY. That is: I GAVE ARGUMENTS FOR MY POSITIONS. If it's inmature, well, sorry, I don't see it that way. But you know what? MORE INMATURE IS TO MAKE SUCH A BIG DEAL ABOUT THAT.


If you want to hear the tightly written songs Toby has written, check out the albums he made under the name maudlin of the Well (death metal, sludge, prog metal, classical, jazz, etc), or some of the songs off of the first KD album. DAWCT is by far their most avant and meandering release. Also, give it more than '3 or 4' listens - it's surely obvious to you that an album like DAWCT isn't something that anyone can get on the initial listens?

I will listen more form this band, tough I doubt I'll like it. I agree it's not something that will get into me in the first listen. But then, there are thing I just take for granted in music: I don't like 14 minutes of repetition, I don't like so-loose structures (I fail to see them, but you say there are, so there must be) I'm open-minded enough my friend, if I weren't I wouldn't have bought the album in the first place. I JUST DIDN'T LIKE IT. Please, understand that not everyone has to agree with you. Or me for that matter. But embrace thye freedom to DO THAT, TO DISAGREE, because otherwise we fall into despotism, tyranny, authoritarism. Believe me, it starts in the lower levels, in the common man...Once the common man accepts it, it's easier to grow into a monster.



Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

    Well, as I will write in my new review, now I strongly disagree with the choice for album of the year.
Then you risk that your review will be deleted. A review is supposed to describe one particular album, it's not a platform for complaints.


I know that. Don't worry, read it and you'll see I review the album and make my arguments very clear. Not bashing for bashing's sake, so to speak.

I wouldn't like my review to be deleted just because I don't agree with the "album of the year"... If one of my reviews is ever deleted, I hope it would be because it's insulting, has no coherence, is just a bashing post disguised as review, or something like that.

EDIT: But you'll never see me writing like that. No unless I get intoxicated with mushrooms that weren't supossed to be eaten.

     
    


uuuh, that was an insulting, incoherent bashing post.
 
The EDIT portion maybe was unnecessary.... I was talking about how I will try never to write an insulting review, has nothing to do with the album. Sorry if you thought  it was.
 

 
You should write a review and make your opinions known. That's how this works. That's how everything works everywhere man is somewhat free.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OpethGuitarist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2007 at 18:21
Originally posted by richeym richeym wrote:

The album requires way more than 3 or 4 listens if you're not used to that type of music.

I first heard their _Choirs of the Eye_ in 2004. It took me until late 2005 for it to 'truly' click and make it my favourite album of all time. Bear in mind I was already a big fan of maudlin of the Well.

 IMO, anyone who doesn't have much positive to say about DAWCT after a few listens shouldn't be writing a review - the music is far far too dense to be able to judge so quickly.

Kayo Dot are my favourite artist (along with Diamanda Galas), and it pleases me that they've been voted album of the year on this site - not least because it'll give them more publicity and more album sales so they may hopefully helped out of their financial situation which has been a bit sh*t for the last few years.



edit: OMG Mr T

I just read your 'review' of DAWCT and I must say I'm somewhat insulted as a Kayo Dot fan that you've written such a steaming pile of rubbish about them. A few points, as if I try and refute everything you said I'd be here all day:

http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=108084

1. Kayo Dot are not 'post metal' - yes, a lot of their stuff is akin to the other sounds commonly found in that genre, but they are way way more avant garde than your average post metal band. If Kayo Dot are post metal, then all the other bands are doing it wrong.

2. You're blatently not a fan of anything like Kayo Dot or any form of 'post' rock/metal (I've seen your incredibly low ratings and slanderous Sigur Ros and Agalloch reviews (GSYBE! are the exception, but they're still nothing like KD). What really gives you a right to judge an album so harshly when it's a matter of taste and it's just that you don't like it. They're pretty damn far removed from post rock/metal - they just get lumped under that as no-one knows what to call them. Aesthetically, they're probably more like jazz or classical in their approach.

3. Maybe you have to be 'stoned' to enhance your listening pleasure of certain bands, but I assure you Kayo Dot fans do not.

4. If you can't see the structure and the fine songwriting of the songs on DAWCT, then that is your problem, not the bands.

5. 3 songs get ratings of 5, 6, and 8.5 out of 10 from you, whilst two get ratings of 1. How does that equate to an overall average of 1 out of 5 for the whole album? Do the maths. They have received from you 23.5 out of a possible 50 points. If anything, it makes their average score a solid 2 star review, not a 1 star.

6. Even more to the point, how can your only mention of the vocals in _Amaranth The Peddler_ be "When the vocals and the drums make their appearance, we're already too scared of the final outcome of the song, as we see that it lasts 14 minutes"? You completely fail to mention how sublime the vocal melodies are in this section.

7. BAD REVIEW. I'm sorry, but it really is a bad review and not in the slightest bit objective. It's simply an immature close-minded tirade about a band you don't understand. Was it meant to be an interesting/insightful/humourous review? If it was, it failed on all levels. I'd expect more from a 'journalism student'.

If you want to hear the tightly written songs Toby has written, check out the albums he made under the name maudlin of the Well (death metal, sludge, prog metal, classical, jazz, etc), or some of the songs off of the first KD album. DAWCT is by far their most avant and meandering release. Also, give it more than '3 or 4' listens - it's surely obvious to you that an album like DAWCT isn't something that anyone can get on the initial listens?


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

    Well, as I will write in my new review, now I strongly disagree with the choice for album of the year.
Then you risk that your review will be deleted. A review is supposed to describe one particular album, it's not a platform for complaints.


I know that. Don't worry, read it and you'll see I review the album and make my arguments very clear. Not bashing for bashing's sake, so to speak.

I wouldn't like my review to be deleted just because I don't agree with the "album of the year"... If one of my reviews is ever deleted, I hope it would be because it's insulting, has no coherence, is just a bashing post disguised as review, or something like that.

EDIT: But you'll never see me writing like that. No unless I get intoxicated with mushrooms that weren't supossed to be eaten.

     
    


uuuh, that was an insulting, incoherent bashing post.




I tried to approach it in a more friendly manner. In the end of course, I realize anyone is entitled to their opinion.


Oh and for the record T, and I don't think I speak for myself on this one, your whole "FREE IDEA, opinion, etc." crap gets extremely annoying. Sorry to put it so harshly, but that's the only way I know how to say it. Whenever you state stuff like this, it comes across as if you think the readers here are incompetent. I realize I can think however I want, but there's also something called being tact. Lose the caps and I'll appreciate more of what you have to say.


Edited by OpethGuitarist - January 23 2007 at 18:29
back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Miracle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2007 at 18:22
I disagree with that review as much as you disagree with the choice of the album of the year but personal disagreement is not legitimate basis to attack the reviewer in such a manner.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atkingani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2007 at 19:47

Let's keep a civil behavior in this thread, please.

 
Not too much time now to read all posts but if rules were broken some posts will be deleted/hidden. Sorry and thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richeym Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2007 at 21:35
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Yes, good for you. But that doesn't mean it ALWAYS happens. So if I make you listen one album, say, 20 times, is it a sure thing that you will like it? I don't think so. Besides, this is not a Shostakovich symphony that requires too many listens.... It's ROCK, and rock,FOR ME, should "click" faster than that. I really envy you for your liking Kayo Dot. I just can't.     


Who's to say that rock music isn't dense enough to require a lot of listens? That's a ridiculous thing to say. I've never known anyone really 'get' Kayo Dot albums within the first 10 or so listens - even those who are already very familiar with the band. New things open up to you on each successive listen. If you wouldn't judge a Shostakovich symphony after 3 or 4 listens as you are aware that it usually takes more listens to appreciate fully, why can't the same be applied to Kayo Dot?
 
 
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


Well, my friend, sorry but this makes no sense. So, IF A PERSON DOESN'T LIKE AN ALBUM, HE SHOULDN'T COMMENT ON IT? My God, we would have only 5 star reviews! (maybe 4).... And, anyway, do we apply that principle to every band, or just Kayo Dot? Well, let's make it a rule: EITHER YOU GIVE THIS ALBUM A 5, OR YOU DON'T REVIEW IT. Also, I HAVE something positive to say about KD: didn't you see I praise their third song? I say they could make better music (FOR MY TASTE THAT IS) hearing how they play their instruments. 


You mis-understand me; I wasn't very clear. I was implying that people who don't 'get' it after a few listens most probably simply haven't 'got' it, or may never 'get' it. Just because you don't like something, it doesn't mean it's a bad album. You've seen the praise and love the album gets from some people, so you must surely recognise that for many, if you 'get' their music, it can be fantastic, but you can't reach that point. If you can't appreciate it yourself, then it doesn't automatically mean it's deserving of a slanderous review and a low rating; surely you can recognise why some consider it to be such a high piece of art, even if you can't enjoy it yourself? There is a lot of classical music out there that I can tell is good, and I know has an amazingly good reputation, but occassionaly I struggle to appreciate it myself to a large extent, particularly on initial listens as I'm maybe not familiar enough with that style of music, and it's dense and complex... hey.. like KD is for you!

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

OK, that's great! More bands and more music is always for the better! I just happened to commit the crime of NOT LIKING THEIR ALBUM. But I could'n agree more: good that they overcome their financial crisis. Did I do anything against that??? Could I?  Confused


That comment wasn't addressed to you at all, it was simply an expression of the pleasure I have at seeing KD win album of the year on this site.

 
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Oh, a "steaming pile of rubbish"... Good start for someone who feels insulted....


Well, you said things a lot worse than that in your review about a very good album. Your review, as a review, is very unprofessional and I honestly do beleive it is a 'pile of rubbish' I'm afraid.

 
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

MAn! Finally someone who knows what band fits in what genre EXACTLY!!!Wink From MY EXPERIENCE, their sound is close to that of other post-sludge-stoner-whatever metal bands, with differences of course, IF NOT THEY WOULD BE COPYISTS.


I don't see it, and post metal is one of my favourite genres. I'm more than familiar with the majority of the known post metal bands and with Kayo Dot, and despite the odd similarity, I don't find them to have much in common. It's like trying to claim that Devil Doll is similar to King Crimson, just because they are both filed under 'art rock'. They're not remotely similar.


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Thank you my dearest friend, you just said it yourself: I have the right to judge it exactly BECAUSE IT'S A MATTER OF TASTE. If there were scientific facts to help me judge an album, I would use them. But this is a matter of taste. I HAVE THE RIGHT. AS LONG AS I DON'T ABUSE IT, I HAVE THAT RIGHT.
 
If a big rap or Britney Spears fan was to come to the site having heard a few of the albums on here once or twice, and then proceeded to write bilous reviews in the same vein as your KD one because they weren't used to listening to (dare I be so pretentious) higher forms of music, and they did it to an album you like and understand, you'd be rightfully pissed as the person is condemning an album from an ignorant standpoint.




Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I will say that then to everyone that ever wrote a bad review (a low-rating review that is, because a bad review is just something else) about something I like: "Oh, you didn't like band X? You gave it 1-star? You can't understand it! It's your problem!!!"   You know, you speak of insult, and then you say I didn't like KD because I didn't get it. That's... insulting???


I speak from experience quite frankly. After being incredibly familiar and loving everything Toby Driver had released before DAWCT, it still took me perhaps a month of heavy listening for DAWCT to 'click' with me. It's a very inpenetrable album, but those who take the time to really absorb it and re-listen, the results are well worth it. I'd guess it probably took me maybe around 20 listens for it to *really* click (beyond the initial thoughts of 'this album is cool but weird'), and even now, a year later, I can still discover new things in the album. My point is that I wouldn't really expect anyone to be able to draw a firm conclusion on DAWCT after 3 or 4 listens, particularly if they're not familiar with Kayo Dot or various forms of avant garde music in general.
 




Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


It's objective in what could be called objective, because as I said, reviews are a subjective thing. Let's say, I was OBJECTIVE IN MY SUBJECTIVITY. That is: I GAVE ARGUMENTS FOR MY POSITIONS. If it's inmature, well, sorry, I don't see it that way. But you know what? MORE INMATURE IS TO MAKE SUCH A BIG DEAL ABOUT THAT.


I usually enjoy reading reviews on this website, even more negative ones, as people usually maintain a degree of proffessionalism in their writing and don't write such horribly childish lines such as "Post-metal? Post-rock? For me, the status of music after hearing this genres is, well, POST-MORTEM." in their reviews. It's not big, funny, nor clever, just irritating and offensive.


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I will listen more form this band, tough I doubt I'll like it. I agree it's not something that will get into me in the first listen. But then, there are thing I just take for granted in music: I don't like 14 minutes of repetition, I don't like so-loose structures (I fail to see them, but you say there are, so there must be) I'm open-minded enough my friend, if I weren't I wouldn't have bought the album in the first place. I JUST DIDN'T LIKE IT. Please, understand that not everyone has to agree with you. Or me for that matter. But embrace thye freedom to DO THAT, TO DISAGREE, because otherwise we fall into despotism, tyranny, authoritarism. Believe me, it starts in the lower levels, in the common man...Once the common man accepts it, it's easier to grow into a monster.

What's with the pseudo-Marxist crap? (and whilst you're at it, please refrain from the over-dose of condescension) I'm merely pointing out it's not a proffessional review, and is in fact childish and immature, and by all means dislike the album, but don't inflict such eye-bleedingly juvinile poison onto the site as a 2000 word way of saying 'THIS IS CRAP COS I DON'T LIKE IT LOL'


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


 
The EDIT portion maybe was unnecessary.... I was talking about how I will try never to write an insulting review, has nothing to do with the album. Sorry if you thought  it was.
 
You wrote an insulting review of DAWCT. I felt offended as a lover of such music, I showed it to my friend who's a big fan too, and his response (on MSN) was:

Quote ... RAAAGH AAARH ARR
kayo dot, post metal?? huhh?
it also made the boring mistake of "track by track". reviews like that are always tedious, especially when trying to be funny and failing. that really pissed me off. my ass would write a better article than that


If Kayo Dot were to see the review, I'm sure they'd be very offended at what you've written - as you've essentially accused them of being bad composers, and failing to achive anything passable as music. I'm probably more offended at the immaturity of the review than anything else. I don't really care that you dislike it - I'm well aware that KD's music is a very acquired taste; however most people who dislike it don't write utter tosh about it and try and pass it off as a good review.

I sincerely doubt you'd have been so hateful towards it if it hadn't been voted album of the year on this site. However, what you must realise is that in general, only those who are into that sort of music would delve into something as dense as KD, thus it is usually only those who review it. It received only 31 ratings, whereas album of the year #5 - Tool's 10'000 Days, received around 5x the amount of ratings. KD winning best album was essentially down to a handful of their fans really enjoying it - it's not exactly a massive success on a larger scale as they're still a relatively unknown band.

Quote You should write a review and make your opinions known. That's how this works. That's how everything works everywhere man is somewhat free.


I've tried writing reviews of Kayo Dot albums before, but I find it almost impossible to articulate my thoughts to do so in a succinct manner. . I either descend into ridiculous hyperbole, or I try and describe each track with minute detail which results in a 1000 word long description of each song that bores people and still doesn't leave the listener with the slightest clue as to what the music actually sounds like. I don't wirte many reviews nowaday, and if I do, I generally only do it for albums that I love, or for albums that are rather obscure and I can't find a good review elsewhere online to show to recommend to others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2007 at 21:41
I'd hate to simplify everything here, but if I could ask one thing...
 
Seriosuly, what is the freaking deal? He didn't like the album, just get over it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2007 at 23:58
Originally posted by Zappa88 Zappa88 wrote:

I'd hate to simplify everything here, but if I could ask one thing...
 
Seriosuly, what is the freaking deal? He didn't like the album, just get over it!
 
Good. Clap Maybe you disagree, maybe you agree, but WHAT'S THE f**kING POINT?
 
Man, after all, I think my little review had a big effect in somebody's life... I will let this go. I have to use my time better, for example, to keep on writing reviews (no matter if they go with the flow or not) or to post comments in most useful threads, or to read the thousand of much more interesting posts around here. So, whoever you are, Richeym, my review-basher, enjoy Kayo Dot, DON'T LET MY REVIEW AFFECT YOUR LIFE SO MUCH. I won't post any more comments on this thread, at least not until there's a better thing to argue about. If you want to continue with this, I'll be happy to do it in Private Messengers or even better by e-mail, let's not waste valuable bandwidth in crying about a REVIEW. Man!
 
And to opethguitarist, I don't get well the point about my talking about freedom and sh*t. I don't understand what offended you or something, maybe I "preach" too much, maybe so, and then I apologize but that's who I am. I'll cut it just out of respect to the rest. But.... wait, I won't! I will continue to defend that value until I'm thrown out of here. I think I'm not doing anything against the rules. In fact, it's the first time someone tells me this.
 
Again to the member that complains about my review, about the "marxist crap": my dearest of all friends in the world, let me tell you that I HATE marxism and communism, I KNOW THAT sh*t.... The ones that confuse talking about freedom with preaching marxism are either: not so familiar with Marx' theories and the applications it has had in reality, or wants to CONVINCE EVERYBODY THAT THAT IS TRUE. The intentions, I have to say, I don't know.
 
But great anyway. I love to discuss about music and about other stuff, too. And specially when it shows my texts are being read!!!
 
EDIT: OpethGuitarist, I re-read your post, I see you are annoyed about some CAPS... It's the style I choose, but I can uderstand your point. I won't stop it altogether, but I'll think twice when they could be understood as , to use a famous word around here, "pretentious".   Peace. Smile
 
 


Edited by The T - January 24 2007 at 00:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richeym Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2007 at 00:59
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Zappa88 Zappa88 wrote:

I'd hate to simplify everything here, but if I could ask one thing...
 
Seriosuly, what is the freaking deal? He didn't like the album, just get over it!
 
Good. Clap Maybe you disagree, maybe you agree, but WHAT'S THE f**kING POINT?
 
Man, after all, I think my little review had a big effect in somebody's life... I will let this go. I have to use my time better, for example, to keep on writing reviews (no matter if they go with the flow or not) or to post comments in most useful threads, or to read the thousand of much more interesting posts around here. So, whoever you are, Richeym, my review-basher, enjoy Kayo Dot, DON'T LET MY REVIEW AFFECT YOUR LIFE SO MUCH. I won't post any more comments on this thread, at least not until there's a better thing to argue about. If you want to continue with this, I'll be happy to do it in Private Messengers or even better by e-mail, let's not waste valuable bandwidth in crying about a REVIEW. Man!


You appear to have entirely missed the point - it's about your attitude to reviewing. It doesn't 'affect my life' nor make me 'cry' in the slightest, don't be so presumptious as to assume that you could achieve such a thing, so kindly drop the patronising tone. You stated before I entered the initial thread that your review was not to be an 'insulting, incoherent bashing' post masquerading as a review. I've given full reasoning as to why it is which you blatently can't refute (hence the refusal to do so). If you have convictions, and truly beleive that that review is worthy of being on the Archives for the world to see and possibly take seriously, then please reply, either in this thread or via PM if you are afraid of public humiliation Smile


Edited by richeym - January 24 2007 at 01:00
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