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Topic ClosedRussia/Ukraine tensions - Any concern?
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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Points: 12400 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 05:56
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Thinking of all our Ukrainian friends right now. Stay safe.
Same to our Russian friends. This is Putin's invasion, not Russia's.
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 06:09
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Thinking of all our Ukrainian friends right now. Stay safe.
Same to our Russian friends. This is Putin's invasion, not Russia's.


Indeed, yes. I'm convinced this is not what the Russian people want.
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 06:40
So how many people in this thread tried to tell me the Russian military would not invade Ukraine?
History repeats itself again for those that don't know history.
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Points: 20414 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 08:51
I didn't think he (Putana) would go ahead. UnhappyThumbs DownOuch
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Points: 573 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 09:02
Madness. Our 2022 society is more unstable than we like to believe.

Lyrics from Right In Two by Tool comes to mind:

Monkey killing, monkey killing monkey over
Pieces of the ground
Silly monkeys
Give them thumbs, they make a club
To beat their brother down
How they've survived so misguided is a mystery
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability
To lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 09:18
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

So how many people in this thread tried to tell me the Russian military would not invade Ukraine?
History repeats itself again for those that don't know history.


I was convinced it wouldn't come to this, and felt like the west was almost egging him on. I was wrong. I had him down as shrewd; dark and calculating but not actually mad. Putin is a thug, a liar, a crook and a f***ing lunatic.
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Points: 20617 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 10:55
Why is any of this surprising? Seriously? Confused
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Points: 15151 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 11:35
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I am no Putin sympathiser, and in no way think he is innocent - but he is far from being the only guilty party here, and NATO (and most particularly the US and UK) are in my opinion as much to blame as Russia. (And, of course, by the US, UK and Russia, I do not mean their peoples, but rather their leaders.)

I heard that Russia actually tried to join NATO, but rejected. When Clinton was in office.

I tried to do some internet research on this. I think it was discussed and considered to some extent on both sides, but I don't see any evidence that ultimately  Russia asked to join and anyone officially rejected them. Of course I don't know all that went on between them at the time, but to me it looks like this story is based on some uncommitted chat that maybe explored this as an idea but never went very far.
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Points: 15151 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 11:43
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:


You're talking about referendum, but I hope you understand that the Ukrainian government in Kiev would have never allowed such referendum to happen...
That may well be true, but I don't remember that Russia ever used their power to press for one. It is obvious now that they're not interested in what a majority of people wants but rather in having Ukraine as a whole dancing to the Russian tune.

Hope you are and stay fine by the way. I'm not agreeing with you here but I learnt a lot from your postings anyway.  
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Points: 34083 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 11:49
I am very sad at what now happens in Ukraine,this is so depressing and tragic, my heart is with Ukranian people and with tehe russian citizants who protests against their own leaders crimes against Ukrains souverinity.
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Points: 2707 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 12:02
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I am no Putin sympathiser, and in no way think he is innocent - but he is far from being the only guilty party here, and NATO (and most particularly the US and UK) are in my opinion as much to blame as Russia. (And, of course, by the US, UK and Russia, I do not mean their peoples, but rather their leaders.)

I heard that Russia actually tried to join NATO, but rejected. When Clinton was in office.

I tried to do some internet research on this. I think it was discussed and considered to some extent on both sides, but I don't see any evidence that ultimately  Russia asked to join and anyone officially rejected them. Of course I don't know all that went on between them at the time, but to me it looks like this story is based on some uncommitted chat that maybe explored this as an idea but never went very far.

Yeah, it doesn't seem like an official thing. 
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Points: 541 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 12:41
I am very sad for Ukraine and praying for people to be safe.

And I hope Putin (and anyone who supports him) burns in hell.
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Points: 2707 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 13:22
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I hope Woon Deadn and other Ukrainian members of PA are able to get to some place safe. My thoughts are with them.

Same here. Woon, I really hope that you're alright.
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Points: 1017 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 13:29
I am deeply grateful to all of you who expressed their sympathy and support to me and other Ukrainians. 

However, again, NATO and the USA were not always right and also did a lot of mistakes. Some of the mistakes cost hundreds of thousands of lives. And, again, Mira said that NATO prevents such conflicts. I think that without NATO there would be no such conflicts, at all. This is the situation where all of us have their own opinions. Let me call it a Borat syndrome, if you like. What's funny for a rich comedian from the UK is not funny at all for poor gypsies in the Romanian village. People from the East and the West do not really know each other, what is most fearful is that they do not even want to know each other well enough. I can even squeeze this phrase to the area of Ukraine: the current conflict is, figuratively speaking, the war between the Eastern Ukraine and the Western Ukraine - people from the Western and Eastern Ukraine do not want to know each other. Why should the Central Ukraine suffer from it?!! This is the war between Ukrainian nationalists and Russian nationalists. I have no problem with bilingual, biethnical identification. Honestly speaking, I don't understand either side's problems. I want to live on the straightly horizontal bridge between the East and the West - instead both sides of Ukraine (and both sides of the world) want me to live on the children's slide where bombs and propaganda against those who live at the lower side can be easily delivered to them. 


Edited by Woon Deadn - February 24 2022 at 13:30
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Points: 14554 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 14:40
NATO has let Putin invade Crimea in 2014, so he knows that nobody will do anything again. 8 years mean that he has had all the time to plan for the invasion carefully, preventing the effects of the embargos.
On the the hand, expanding NATO to the East has the same imperialistic flavor.

I think to the Russian artists: Roz Vitalis, Iamthemorning, Vespero, Yojo to mention some. Surely they disapprove this war. If your nick is Poloniumcubes you aren't a Putin supporter for sure. 
After the pandemic they will suffer the embargo and the economic crisis that will follow.

Of course, it's the same for everybody else, but we have a sort of relationship with them when we enjoy their music. 

Same for Atomic Simao, Hoggwash, Obiymy Doshu, Cats On The Roof, Vitalij Kuprij and so on from the Ukrainian side.

Quoting Woon Deadn: "This is the war between Ukrainian nationalists and Russian nationalists.". Not only: this is a Risiko between NATO and Russia. The nationalism is quite a pretest. Nationalists are "useful pawns" as usual.
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Points: 1587 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 16:01
Putin is on some mad crusade to restore Russia to its former USSR "glory". For me the timing is no coincidence. His friendship with Trump and the economic gains they both stood to make through that friendship kept Putins aspirations at bay, however after the change of government in the US and withdrawal from Afghanistan Putin could clearly see that the US and its allies were in a weakened position and took advantage of this to make his move. 

Yes, history goes 'round in circles. The "enemies" of the '70s have returned and it also seems so reminiscent of the ambitions of another fascist dictator some ninety odd years ago.

Just pray Putin hasn't got Poland in his sights.
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Points: 20617 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 16:28
Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

Putin is on some mad crusade to restore Russia to its former USSR "glory". For me the timing is no coincidence. His friendship with Trump and the economic gains they both stood to make through that friendship kept Putins aspirations at bay, however after the change of government in the US and withdrawal from Afghanistan Putin could clearly see that the US and its allies were in a weakened position and took advantage of this to make his move. 

Yes, history goes 'round in circles. The "enemies" of the '70s have returned and it also seems so reminiscent of the ambitions of another fascist dictator some ninety odd years ago.

Just pray Putin hasn't got Poland in his sights.
Poland is a NATO country. Putin is crazy, but not that crazy.
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 16:46
If the Russian people don't like this, they can always vote putin out at the next election ... oh yeah, never mind.
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Points: 1587 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 17:54
"What if Russian forces are to seize Kyiv and topple the government there? What if airstrikes are launched along the Polish and Romanian borders? What if the Russian air force violates the airspace of other NATO members or pursues Ukrainian fighters across international frontiers?

Such outcomes would be unsettling for politicians in Berlin, Paris, and London. They would verge on existential threats from the perspective of Bucharest, Warsaw, and others in the east.

[T]his large-scale attack on Ukraine will probably harden Western opinion against Putin in the first instance. NATO will profess solidarity and resolve. But if large numbers of refugees stream out of Ukraine, if anti-Russian fighters look for bases in NATO countries, or if conflict spills over into other parts of Europe, for example, then people in Central and Western Europe might quickly become convinced that the concept of “indivisible security” captures a meaningful reality after all. In turn, it is reasonable to expect that the whole of Europe can be forced to acknowledge – however grudgingly – that a reformed security order is needed."

From:Russia's War on Ukraine: What Does Putin Hope to Achieve? - 19FortyFive







Edited by Hugh Manatee - February 24 2022 at 17:56
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2022 at 18:41
Back in December, I pointed out Putin's demands. One of which is that Ukraine could never join NATO.
Why didn't Biden give into that demand?  Now, Russia can take All of Ukraine...if he so wishes. Sure, it can be argued that Russia would have attacked Ukraine anyway. We'll never know. Unless,

 Better late than never. Biden and NATO should put into writing that Ukraine will NEVER join NATO. Perhaps Putin will withdraw from Ukraine?  It's worth trying...isn't it?  

In an attempt to raise low polling numbers, Biden sanctioned Russia.  What happened after Biden sanctioned Russia? Russia attacked Ukraine.  Keep poking the Bear, the Bear will bite.

What will Biden's sanctions accomplish? 
Force inflation even higher for America and Europe as long as the sanctions last.  
Push Russia further into China's waiting arms. 
True, sanctions will hurt Russia. But, after two years of record gas/oil prices, by 2024,  Germany will ask Russia to resume Nordstream 2.     




Edited by omphaloskepsis - February 24 2022 at 18:42
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