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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Points: 9869 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2012 at 09:22
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

OK, I am just beginning listening to Felona e Sorona now for the first time (first Le Orme for that matter).  I will let you know the answer!  Tongue
Done.  (Short album!)  I found it to be pleasant enough, but nothing particularly special.  Don't hear any out of tune singing, in any case.  Certainly not 1 star, though.  I'd give it 3/5 max.   Probably will not be buying it, but if I did own it I'm sure I'd listen to it now and then.
 
Meaning that it is not a good album. if 3/5 is tour maximum rating, than the "normal" would be 2/5; besides, you don't even find it worth buying. In other words, I'm glad you helped me prove my point Mr. cat.

It was just a first listen, dude! Stop estimating everything at face value. Prog takes time, and you know it.

lolwhat? are you implying I didn't take enough time to value and weight the record? Stern Smile Oh man, this keeps getting better and better. Ermm


I think he meant it was infocat's first listen (and that it might get better with subsequent listens).  His comment confused me too the first time I read it, he basically quoted the wrong person.
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Points: 32995 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2012 at 09:23
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

OK, I am just beginning listening to Felona e Sorona now for the first time (first Le Orme for that matter).  I will let you know the answer!  Tongue
Done.  (Short album!)  I found it to be pleasant enough, but nothing particularly special.  Don't hear any out of tune singing, in any case.  Certainly not 1 star, though.  I'd give it 3/5 max.   Probably will not be buying it, but if I did own it I'm sure I'd listen to it now and then.
 
Meaning that it is not a good album. if 3/5 is tour maximum rating, than the "normal" would be 2/5; besides, you don't even find it worth buying. In other words, I'm glad you helped me prove my point Mr. cat.

It was just a first listen, dude! Stop estimating everything at face value. Prog takes time, and you know it.

lolwhat? are you implying I didn't take enough time to value and weight the record? Stern Smile Oh man, this keeps getting better and better. Ermm

he ain't referring to you.
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Points: 32995 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2012 at 09:25
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

OK, I am just beginning listening to Felona e Sorona now for the first time (first Le Orme for that matter).  I will let you know the answer!  Tongue
Done.  (Short album!)  I found it to be pleasant enough, but nothing particularly special.  Don't hear any out of tune singing, in any case.  Certainly not 1 star, though.  I'd give it 3/5 max.   Probably will not be buying it, but if I did own it I'm sure I'd listen to it now and then.
 
Meaning that it is not a good album. if 3/5 is tour maximum rating, than the "normal" would be 2/5; besides, you don't even find it worth buying. In other words, I'm glad you helped me prove my point Mr. cat.

It was just a first listen, dude! Stop estimating everything at face value. Prog takes time, and you know it.

lolwhat? are you implying I didn't take enough time to value and weight the record? Stern Smile Oh man, this keeps getting better and better. Ermm


I think he meant it was infocat's first listen (and that it might get better with subsequent listens).  His comment confused me too the first time I read it, he basically quoted the wrong person.

No, he quoted right. It's a comprehension problem.
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Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Since when is 3/5 not a good album?

3 stars is a good album, although with some flaws.  But to a lot of reviewers here it is used for a so-so album, or even a bad album if it is by a group they love.  I use 3 for albums that I like and may even return to fairly often, or for albums I like but rarely listen to, or for albums I don't like but appreciate enough that I don't think 2 stars is fair
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Points: 4006 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seventhsojourn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2012 at 09:47
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

... And i've always defended that the RPI as a genre does not exist...
 
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

As I mentioned before, I'm no expert in progressive rock from Italy, so I may not have enough in-depth knowlege to actually point out how many bandds exactly sound the same way. However, with the little knowlege I have I must say that, excepting PFM and Banco, all other bands sound much like one another; in the case of newer bands, like Il Tempio Delle Cassidere and Il Bacio Della Medusa, the genericness becomes so intense it starts to be ludicrouns how people manages to think they are masterpieces, on the same level as consecrated albums as Storia di Minuto and Darwin!. And even among albums I enjoy, such as Zarathustra and Loccanda's debut,  they do sound quite generic. I berlieve that the only band that managed to get somewhat innovative after the 1970's and that is listed there are the Three Monks, and even so they should be listed as Symphonic Prog because they have absolutely nothing in common with all those bands.
 
Hey Caio! Smile If all Italian bands sound similar to you, and if you believe them to be generic (i.e. referring or belonging to a group, class or genre), how do you justify saying the RPI does not exist? Or are you making a case for the existence of RPI? Less than half the Italian artists listed on PA are in RPI, by the way. If RPI does not exist, and if Three Monks belongs in Symphonic because it has nothing in common with other Italian bands you mention, then where should those other bands (PFM, Banco, Museo Rosenbach, BDM, Clessidre etc.) be listed, since you would have them in neither RPI or Symph? 
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Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
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Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:


Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:



Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

OK, I am just beginning listening to Felona e Sorona now for the first time (first Le Orme for that matter).  I will let you know the answer!  Tongue
Done.  (Short album!)  I found it to be pleasant enough, but nothing particularly special.  Don't hear any out of tune singing, in any case.  Certainly not 1 star, though.  I'd give it 3/5 max.   Probably will not be buying it, but if I did own it I'm sure I'd listen to it now and then.

 

Meaning that it is not a good album. if 3/5 is tour maximum rating, than the "normal" would be 2/5; besides, you don't even find it worth buying. In other words, I'm glad you helped me prove my point Mr. cat.

It was just a first listen, dude! Stop estimating everything at face value. Prog takes time, and you know it.

Sorry; I should have been more specific. It was the Cat's first listen. Give him some time and he might prove it to you otherwise.
lolwhat? are you implying I didn't take enough time to value and weight the record? Stern Smile Oh man, this keeps getting better and better. Ermm


Edited by Dayvenkirq - November 18 2012 at 11:33
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CCVP View Drop Down
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Points: 7971 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CCVP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2012 at 14:27
Originally posted by seventhsojourn seventhsojourn wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

... And i've always defended that the RPI as a genre does not exist...
 
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

As I mentioned before, I'm no expert in progressive rock from Italy, so I may not have enough in-depth knowlege to actually point out how many bandds exactly sound the same way. However, with the little knowlege I have I must say that, excepting PFM and Banco, all other bands sound much like one another; in the case of newer bands, like Il Tempio Delle Cassidere and Il Bacio Della Medusa, the genericness becomes so intense it starts to be ludicrouns how people manages to think they are masterpieces, on the same level as consecrated albums as Storia di Minuto and Darwin!. And even among albums I enjoy, such as Zarathustra and Loccanda's debut,  they do sound quite generic. I berlieve that the only band that managed to get somewhat innovative after the 1970's and that is listed there are the Three Monks, and even so they should be listed as Symphonic Prog because they have absolutely nothing in common with all those bands.
 
Hey Caio! Smile If all Italian bands sound similar to you, and if you believe them to be generic (i.e. referring or belonging to a group, class or genre), how do you justify saying the RPI does not exist? Or are you making a case for the existence of RPI? Less than half the Italian artists listed on PA are in RPI, by the way. If RPI does not exist, and if Three Monks belongs in Symphonic because it has nothing in common with other Italian bands you mention, then where should those other bands (PFM, Banco, Museo Rosenbach, BDM, Clessidre etc.) be listed, since you would have them in neither RPI or Symph? 

Hey there, Chris, how are you doing?

OK, let me make my point for the simplet stuff first. As for the 3 monks, I mean that they are actually the first band listed that genre that seemed somewhat innovative after the passing of the 1970's. I do not mean to exclude the other artists from any other music genre grouping.

And my case for that genre in particular, an opinion I have ever defended, is that it is almost exclusively reserved for symphonic prog bands from Italy. There must be some exception, but I don't know any (actually, the only I know is Area which, quite frankly, I don't even know why it is listed there and not in jazz fusion as is, for example, DFA).
 
People usually mentions that there are other influences, like jazz or folk music besides classical music, but are there, really? The "folk" influences are merely imported either from the US or England, I've never listened to any band listed there that has Italian folk influence at all (again, I do not know every band listed there). I mean, really, where are the accordions, the harmonicas, the local dialects. . . There's nothing Italian about the so-called "folk" influence in the RPI.

And the jazz influence, for the most part, has only come in the very late stages of known bands, mostly in the latter part of the 1970's (being PFM the biggest example of that), so it does not play such an important role in defining the genre, as it was seen by some as a sign of decadence. Also, a considerable percentage of bands have only released a single album, which are all symphonic prog as well (Museo Rosenbach, Loccanda delle Fate, Semiramis, etc). 

As for the bands outside the 1970's, some could be moved for other genres which have relations with symphonic prog, like neo (Mangala Valis and Malibran) or crossover (Goblin is the only name that comes to my mind, even though their earliest albums are undeniably symphonic, Egonom and Franco Battiato), but the majority would go to symphonic anyway.

Moreover, there are unique sound styles that still manage to get sprayed though different genres, which is the case with the progressive rock made in Brazil during the 1970's. It managed to put together European progressive rock with psychedelia, folk music (from Brazil), different genres of popular music, samba and bossa nova even! Still, there's nothing, no recognition whatsoever. And there is also the case of Japanese bands, but I don't know them that well to defend them as passionately as I do with BR bands. 

With all that said, I still find it hard to see how people defend that the progressive rock recorded in Italy was so unique that it demands to be separated into a single genre. It is NOT that unique, it is merely how people from a country, with a common cultural background put their twist in progressive rock. Don't French bands do/did that as well, as did North American bands (USA, Canada and Mexico)?

Just my two cents on the matter. Smile


Edited by CCVP - November 18 2012 at 14:27
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Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

People usually mentions that there are other influences, like jazz or folk music besides classical music, but are there, really? The "folk" influences are merely imported either from the US or England, I've never listened to any band listed there that has Italian folk influence at all (again, I do not know every band listed there). I mean, really, where are the accordions, the harmonicas, the local dialects. . . There's nothing Italian about the so-called "folk" influence in the RPI.
What about Banco's "Canto Nomade ... " and "Non Mi Rompete"? Where did the music for the guitars come from? Please, tell me it's from an anglophonic country.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - November 18 2012 at 14:39
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Discussion turned a strange way. The last thing I wanted to raise is the question is RPI a genre or not.

My point was: if you say you're not an expert in progressive rock from Italy don't make a conclusion that "most of the scene has nothing interesting to present at all".
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Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Discussion turned a strange way. The last thing I wanted to raise is the question is RPI a genre or not.

My point was: if you say you're not an expert in progressive rock from Italy don't make a conclusion that "most of the scene has nothing interesting to present at all".

That's why I'm not interested in it nor I'm a specialist. Wink

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

People usually mentions that there are other influences, like jazz or folk music besides classical music, but are there, really? The "folk" influences are merely imported either from the US or England, I've never listened to any band listed there that has Italian folk influence at all (again, I do not know every band listed there). I mean, really, where are the accordions, the harmonicas, the local dialects. . . There's nothing Italian about the so-called "folk" influence in the RPI.

What about Banco's "Canto Nomade ... " and "Non Mi Rompete"? Where did the music for the guitars come from? Please, tell me it's from an anglophonic country.

Maybe inventiveness or originality? I don't know, it's been years since I've last listened to Banco and Io Sono Nato Libero is NOT among my favorite albums by them. I'm much more inclined to listen to Darwin, L'Ultima Cena and Di Terra.


Edited by CCVP - November 18 2012 at 18:48
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Points: 13298 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andy Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2013 at 15:28
To those concerned with SWilson fanboying - all reviews posted before the release date will be given the benefit of the doubt in that we have no idea if they got the album illegally or through a promo copy (I've reviewed a few albums before they were officially released myself), so we won't delete reviews.

Ratings only, however, are right out. I've been trying to keep up with them but the buggers keep coming. Angry
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^ Fine by me. It's starting with 100 5* ratings that bothers me. Not two 5* from people who have reviewed it.
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Yes, it's just that I have to delete every single rating manually, which gets rather tedious. 
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This latest review of "Fragile" amused me; it's a nice variant on the emperor's new clothes reviews that some folks like to post (how could we all have been so wrong about the album!?LOL).

I especially like how he doesn't say he listens to the album annually, but uses the more floral  "a couple of times every two years".
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Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

This latest review of "Fragile" amused me; it's a nice variant on the emperor's new clothes reviews that some folks like to post (how could we all have been so wrong about the album!?LOL).

I especially like how he doesn't say he listens to the album annually, but uses the more floral  "a couple of times every two years".
I've chosen one random review. He describes The dark Side Of The Moon like a 3 stars album: "some good songs but overrated" but rates it with 1 star. A PM from an admin suggesting him to read the guidelines better should be enough.
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So many one and five star reviews....almost every single one.....just ridiculous.  
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

This latest review of "Fragile" amused me; it's a nice variant on the emperor's new clothes reviews that some folks like to post (how could we all have been so wrong about the album!?LOL).

I especially like how he doesn't say he listens to the album annually, but uses the more floral  "a couple of times every two years".
I've chosen one random review. He describes The dark Side Of The Moon like a 3 stars album: "some good songs but overrated" but rates it with 1 star. A PM from an admin suggesting him to read the guidelines better should be enough.


You beat me to it! I just read his so called review of a classic album Fragile, and was mortified at his lack of justification of rating a mere 1 star! 

Then checked all his other ratings and he rates every King Crimson 5 stars and every Steve Hackett album 1 star. I doubt he heard any, he just hates Yes. 

Not good enough and really tarnishes this site with his lack of wisdom in rating. 

I hope he sticks to his ratings only system, and Ihope he can actually rate music he likes; who would listen to every Steve Hackett knowing they hate him. He either has too much time on his hands or he is committing eardrum abuse to his good self. The mind boggles.....
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Heres a beauty from our Hackett lover

http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=879948

"This is just one more album. I do not recommend except if you are a fan of Steve Hackett, if there is any. I found it quite disconnected, taking unrelated notes from here and from there. Some times is really poppy. Right now I am listening "na, na, na, na" which is obviolusly very un ispired. The vocals are also bad. Maybe I need to hear the album more times but by now, I would not pay for it. Although I already paid because it had high rates. At the moment one star. Maybe in two years when I listen again I will give it to it one more star."


Very amusing - and completely bogus



oh and I just read this one
http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=255104

"It is almost impossble to listen to with a woman around you....."LOL

Oh by the way it is dangerous to drive listening to prog - Birds of Fire makes you drive faster and to quote Passion by PG "Every time one listen to this album one can pay attention to a new details. The music has the capability of relaxing and it is dangerous to put when you are driving, since you can get slept easily. "

and King Crmsons Heaven ad Earth

"I will explain why I can thoughtfully give to this album five stars. Well, to begin with most of the time the music in this album is quite horrible and I like very much horrble music. There are very few parts that can be acceptable for average people, only maybe Heaven and Hell. If you put this album in your car, it is very difficult for you to get slept, so it gives security in this sense. On the other hand, it can be dangerous, since you can drive much faster than usual. Until now it has been impossible for me to put this album in a reasonalbe volume, say three over ten, and my wife let me finish it. Therefore it is a masterpiece, indeed, very few people is able to do this kind of music."

thanks for the warnings!


and this one from Harmonium

"Well I have listen this album several times. It is nice, it looks like songs for little babies. I would not be sure if this album deserve to be qualify as prog rock. I think it has nice songs, but they do not go beyond that. The flute sounds very nice, the fact that they do not use drums is unusual and interesting, but many people would say that it is just one more album. I think I have to reinterprate what I think a masterpiece is for me if I want to say that this is a masterpiece. Therefore, I give one star. I would like to know what people would say if they would not know that this album is so overrated. One star of course. Now after several years I have changed my mind and I give three stars."

Yet he gives it 1 star for the hell of it!!!!!


and lastly he says he willgive DSOTM 2 stars and still rates it a 1

"This album is one of the most famous albums in the history of music. It is true that it has some high lights, as it is the beginning, time or money, it has also some interesting parts, but I do not find it so good and in general it is to overated. The point is that it is very accessible. Pink Floyd knew very well to do the music that most of the people like. Therefore, I do not think that the album deserves so much, although it contains nice, just nice songs. Although I like it, I only give it two stars. I will think if in the future I can give more stars."


Edited by AtomicCrimsonRush - January 20 2013 at 15:54
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90% of his ratings are either 1* or 5*, and are reviewed poorly. Oh well, not like it's going to do anything to the ratings or placements. Most of the albums he chose prolly have enough ratings to become immune to silliness. 
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I'll drop him a helpful PM!Wink
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