The Atheist - Agnostic - Non religious thread

BaldFriede wrote: Dean wrote: BaldFriede wrote: Dean wrote: The T wrote: Dean, so you say those atheists are clearly disturbed individual with mental health problems. Care to extend the same to religious fanatics who do atrocious acts? It's clear in both cases they are all disturbed. They justify themselves with their beliefs. Many of those religious nuts who commit such atrocities were indoctrinated by their religions to commit those acts. No, Dean. They were indoctrinated by religious leaders. That is quite a difference Not much. it is all the difference, Dean. Those religious leaders have goals of their own which have little or nothing at all to do with their religion.

I see no distinction between an organised religion and those who run it.

BaldFriede wrote: Dean wrote: BaldFriede wrote: Dean wrote: BaldFriede wrote: Dean wrote: The T wrote: Dean, so you say those atheists are clearly disturbed individual with mental health problems. Care to extend the same to religious fanatics who do atrocious acts? It's clear in both cases they are all disturbed. They justify themselves with their beliefs. Many of those religious nuts who commit such atrocities were indoctrinated by their religions to commit those acts. No, Dean. They were indoctrinated by religious leaders. That is quite a difference Not much. it is all the difference, Dean. Those religious leaders have goals of their own which have little or nothing at all to do with their religion. I see no distinction between an organised religion and those who run it. Again I can not believe you really mean that. If a religious leader is clearly in contradiction with the scripture there is a big difference.

There is a difference between "different kinds of interpretation" and "outright contradiction", Dean.

The Christian bible has been through so many translations and copies that it would be more surprising if there were none. Yet the central message is without any contradiction: "Love Thy Neighbour as you love Thyself."

A message which can originally be found in the Torah.

Everything Jesus said was a commentary on Deuteronomy 6:5 and everything he did was a commentary on Leviticus 19:18.

Edited by Atavachron - February 17 2013 at 20:59

BaldFriede wrote: The Christian bible has been through so many translations and copies that it would be more surprising if there were none. Yet the central message is without any contradiction: "Love Thy Neighbour as you love Thyself."

As a Christian, I would disagree.  I don't know that any one verse can really capture the central message of Scripture, but the closest I've seen is: "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."  Yes, that's John 3:16.  Yes, that's somewhat cliche by now, but there's a reason it got that way .

It's important to think of Scripture as a story.  Yes, it's made up of many different individual books, but everything in the Old Testament points to the coming of the Messiah, and the whole New Testament is about Him!  Yes, love for our neighbors is a huge emphasis of Christianity, but it's important to remember that "we love, because He first loved us."  Christians don't believe that we can save ourselves by loving each other, but that we should love each other because Christ loved us and gave Himself up to death for us.

A couple other things (I'm trying to answer more than one post without making a huge quote pyramid, so bear with me)...

Dean:  The Crusades weren't driven by religious fanaticism; at first, they were defensive wars meant to protect pilgrims to the Holy Land who the Islamic occupants were persecuting, and to take back the land Muslims had taken from Christians.  Later, they became power/money/fame/status grabs for kings who wanted lots of cash and props from the pope.  I don't deny that there was most likely fanaticism among the soldiers who went on crusade, but the root cause of the crusades was not fanaticism.

Timothy:  The New Testament wasn't meant to replace the Old, but to fulfill it; Jesus himself said "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it," and Paul (in one of his letters to Timothy, I believe) talked about the value of "Scripture," which in a time which the New Testament was still being written would have referred to the Old Testament Scriptures.

thellama73 wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: BaldFriede wrote: The Christian bible has been through so many translations and copies that it would be more surprising if there were none. Yet the central message is without any contradiction: "Love Thy Neighbour as you love Thyself." As a Christian, I would disagree.  I don't know that any one verse can really capture the central message of Scripture, but the closest I've seen is: "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."  Yes, that's John 3:16.  Yes, that's somewhat cliche by now, but there's a reason it got that way . Really? I always thought the essence of scripture was Exodus 21:17. "Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death." The teenage years must have been really rough back then, if they were anything like teenagers today.

Thank God that He has sent Jesus to fulfill the Law and that we are now freed from it! 

I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that you probably had to curse your parents publically to get executed for it.  I don't know what parenting methods were like back then, but if they were anything at all like they are today I don't think they would drag their son before the Levites because he swore at them.

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Dean:  The Crusades weren't driven by religious fanaticism; at first, they were defensive wars meant to protect pilgrims to the Holy Land who the Islamic occupants were persecuting, and to take back the land Muslims had taken from Christians.  Later, they became power/money/fame/status grabs for kings who wanted lots of cash and props from the pope.  I don't deny that there was most likely fanaticism among the soldiers who went on crusade, but the root cause of the crusades was not fanaticism.

Don't make excuses for the Crusades, a holy war is a holy war no matter the apparent justification. No religion = no holy wars.