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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 03:03
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


Negoba-->yes the room is very important but better a good system in a bad room than the reverse

Dean

I’m not qualified enough to reply you on the power chapter.
I'm sure there must be some audiophile out there who is qualified to answer me, and I will happily discuss the point with him.


However qualified he is he couldn't change the laws of physics, so the more qualified he was, the less he would be an audiophile - at least when we use the word in the sense that Oliver does.
The idea of using over-rated power cables must have come from somewhere and I'm curious to know where and why (and not just because I'm an electronics engineer). I cannot think of a single advantage of using heavier cables, especially when the disadvantages are so pronounced - all the plugs and sockets are designed for 1.5mm or 2.5mm cable - this is like putting tyres made for a Range Rover Chelsea tractor on a Citroën C3. Lowly 1.5mm cable is rated at 14A with a max current of 20A ... that's in excess of 3000W continuous power handling.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 05:36
Having upgraded to 10mm cables (or whatever is supposedly recommended) here are some cheaper tips for improving the sound of your system:

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/Free_Techniques/Free_Techniques.html


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 07:36
LOL

^^ It's the simple principle of "bigger is better" - it appeals to common sense, not to technical knowledge. The only problem with common sense when it comes to electronics, physics, chemics etc. is that it can be very misleading, since sometimes the physical laws are counter-intuitive.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - April 12 2011 at 07:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 08:27
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Negoba-->yes the room is very important but better a good system in a bad room than the reverse Dean I’m not qualified enough to reply you on the power chapter.

I'm sure there must be some audiophile out there who is qualified to answer me, and I will happily discuss the point with him.




However qualified he is he couldn't change the laws of physics, so the more qualified he was, the less he would be an audiophile - at least when we use the word in the sense that Oliver does.

The idea of using over-rated power cables must have come from somewhere and I'm curious to know where and why (and not just because I'm an electronics engineer). I cannot think of a single advantage of using heavier cables, especially when the disadvantages are so pronounced - all the plugs and sockets are designed for 1.5mm or 2.5mm cable - this is like putting tyres made for a Range Rover Chelsea tractor on a Citroën C3. Lowly 1.5mm cable is rated at 14A with a max current of 20A ... that's in excess of 3000W continuous power handling.


I don't have the explanation because the way electrons move into the conductor is something not well undertood yet (it's related to quantiq mechanic, very complex) but it works, the difference is HUGE.

Coming back to the power filter issue (isolation filter), the peak surge
are taken from the energy stored into the filter itself that's why it's oversized, at least 4x the power of the filtered device)and mostly it filter high freq which are not audible but disturbe A LOT everything in the devices, especially in the numeric field. Power is essential in a device.

As for vibration, a conductor that moves in a magnetic field produces a current, a tiny current that may also disturb a lot depending what conductor is concerned .

Edited by oliverstoned - April 12 2011 at 08:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 08:30
It's amazing how much this is like wine tasting. Every good class I've been to always starts with "If it tastes good to you, it's good." The problem is people won't stop with "I like the way that sounds." They want to pretend it has some objective "betterness" than they can describe. Often what triggers the preference is elusive. 
 
 
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 08:38
...because everybody listening to my system or every other real good agree to say that's it's miles beyong everything they ever heard before.
My system pushes walls, it's like being at the heart of sound.
It's an achievement when working with Cd source and tht's because of the power, vibration, cabling optimization to say the least.

Edited by oliverstoned - April 12 2011 at 08:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 08:45
Dean ple3ase clear your inbox
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:25
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


I don't have the explanation because the way electrons move into the conductor is something not well undertood yet (it's related to quantiq mechanic, very complex) but it works, the difference is HUGE.

No. Please don't try and bury this under a mire of quantum mechanics or try to blind me with science that you don't understand. If you don't understand it - walk away, but don't make excuses you think no one can argue against. I'll tell you how electrons move in a conductor - very slowly (less than 1m per hour) and very eratically and we understand it perfectly.
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


Coming back to the power filter issue (isolation filter), the peak surge
are taken from the energy stored into the filter itself that's why it's oversized, at least 4x the power of the filtered device)and mostly it filter high freq which are not audible but disturbe A LOT everything in the devices, especially in the numeric field. Power is essential in a device.
Don't. Seriously don't. You really do not understand the principles well enough to state stuiff like this. If you've copied it from some manufacture's website then give me the link.
  • Stortage of AC power is impossible - if it were possible then it would solve all the world's energy problems over night (literally) - filters do not store energy.
  • HF filtering does not require the use of heavy, high current cabling.
  • HF interferance of digital equipment is dealt with by design - nothing would work if it wasn't.
  • Of course power is essential, and 3000W down a 1.6mm² is more than you will ever use or need.

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


As for vibration, a conductor that moves in a magnetic field produces a current, a tiny current that may also disturb a lot depending what conductor is concerned .

LOL Given the field strength of the Earth's magentic field, the length of the longest conductors used in hi-fi equipment  and the distance those wires vibrate then the induced currents you are taking about are measured in atto-amps (1E-18 amps) or less - which in terms of dB is something in excess of -300dB less than the smallest signal in your system.... and before we get carried away in thinking -300dB is twice as small as -150dB, it's not: deciBels are logarithmic -300db is 31 million times smaller than -150dB.
 
No listening device ever created by man or gods can detect -300dB difference in sound levels, including the human ear.


Edited by Dean - April 12 2011 at 09:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:29
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

It's amazing how much this is like wine tasting. Every good class I've been to always starts with "If it tastes good to you, it's good." The problem is people won't stop with "I like the way that sounds." They want to pretend it has some objective "betterness" than they can describe. Often what triggers the preference is elusive. 
 

 


It's similar and it's different: some prefer bordeaux, other Bourgogne and you can't argue because it's really a matter of taste.

But everyone who is not dishonest and who listened to the dead, cold and thin mid/high's sound of a wide-bandth solidstate
amplification Vs a good tube amp, believe me, everybody prefers the tube sound.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:29
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Dean ple3ase clear your inbox
Embarrassed stop filling it up then Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:35
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

...because everybody listening to my system or every other real good agree to say that's it's miles beyong everything they ever heard before.
I have read enough details of your system to know that this is a truthful statement. However that is because of the quality of some (not all) of your hardware and some (not all) of the improvements you have made. Some of it is a complete waste of time and energy.
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


My system pushes walls, it's like being at the heart of sound.
"pushes walls"  Confused I suggest you upgrade your walls. LOL
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


It's an achievement when working with Cd source and tht's because of the power, vibration, cabling optimization to say the least.
No. it is to say something. Some of these changes are effective and there is sound logic and reasoning behind doing them, however, reading a lot of what you have written, and suggested to other people, that is not true for every modification or claim you make.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:38
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

It's amazing how much this is like wine tasting. Every good class I've been to always starts with "If it tastes good to you, it's good." The problem is people won't stop with "I like the way that sounds." They want to pretend it has some objective "betterness" than they can describe. Often what triggers the preference is elusive. 
 

 


It's similar and it's different: some prefer bordeaux, other Bourgogne and you can't argue because it's really a matter of taste.

But everyone who is not dishonest and who listened to the dead, cold and thin mid/high's sound of a wide-bandth solidstate
amplification Vs a good tube amp, believe me, everybody prefers the tube sound.
I can repeat this as often as you can. People like how valves sound - end of argument. That's not "real" and it is not what the studio engineer recorded on the master tape.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:41
So in short.

No one disputes Olivers system sounds great. The only dispute is why and whether the sound is "coloured".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:47
I know that energy storage does not exist, except in batteries, sorry i didn't expressed myself well.

"HF filtering does not require the use of heavy, high current cabling"

Heavy cabling is not necessary, it's just that some cables are heavy for other technical reasons, but i've never claimed that you need a heavy and thick cable to filter HF.

What i'm sure is that a 4mm diameter cable instead of 1.5 makes a huge difference for power amp on a dedicated line.

"HF interferance of digital equipment is dealt with by design - nothing would work if it wasn't"

Which doesn't mean that it cannot be improved. And the CD itself reject a lot of high freq into the sytem, that's why a separate line improves a lot.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 10:24
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

I know that energy storage does not exist, except in batteries, sorry i didn't expressed myself well.

"HF filtering does not require the use of heavy, high current cabling"

Heavy cabling is not necessary, it's just that some cables are heavy for other technical reasons, but i've never claimed that you need a heavy and thick cable to filter HF.

What i'm sure is that a 4mm diameter cable instead of 1.5 makes a huge difference for power amp on a dedicated line.

"HF interferance of digital equipment is dealt with by design - nothing would work if it wasn't"

Which doesn't mean that it cannot be improved. And the CD itself reject a lot of high freq into the sytem, that's why a separate line improves a lot.
Whether by mistake, misunderstanding or poor explanation you have made claims regarding heavy conductors and power filtering. However, we can move on from this because it is going nowehere.
 
Speaking from personal viewpoint I believe there is a limit to how much improvement can be made and how much is necessary. CD inject a small amount of HF, the extent of which is controlled by FCC and CE regulations - manufactures generally allow themselves a wide margin between what their equipment radiates and what the regulations permit. I find it incredible to believe that a top-end manufacturer would sell equipment that was detrimental to the sound of any system, especially when such "fixes" are so simple and inexpensive. It is far cheaper to fix the cause of problem at source than it is to try and cure the effects of that problem elsewhere. Now, you may have read that last sentence as total justifrication for all the effort you put into filtering and seperating your power cables, and you would be wrong. You have no means of measuring any of this aledged HF "polution" in your system, you have no means of positively isolating any "polution" in your system to any single cause and you have no means of determining that any one "fix" is the fix for the problem you think you have. Any fix you make that has a percieved improvement is purely subjective, influenced by your desire to want to hear an improvement. You have made this point yourself - blind testing is impossible because your ears get tired - the time difference between hearing your system without the modification and hearing it again with the modification means it is impossible for you to tell the difference between the two listens. This would be true if the improvement was perceptible - much of what you are claiming are imperceptable improvements (or none at all).
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 12:05
I imagine your sheepish expression listening to my system while i'd be changing cables and filters to prove you that it's really efficient.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 12:11

LOL I'll never doubt the power of your imagination Wink

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 12:16
Dean listening to oliverstoned's system.....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 12:43
A little unfair (but funny). I have only ever praised his system, and that's without hearing it. I would give it a fair listen.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 13:01
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

A little unfair (but funny). I have only ever praised his system, and that's without hearing it. I would give it a fair listen.

I went for funny rather than realism or fairness so I'll call that a success.Big smile

(I am in no doubt that you listen and judge honestly)


Edited by Snow Dog - April 12 2011 at 13:02
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