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Yontar 
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Joined: September 07 2006
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 Posted: April 02 2007 at 09:23 |
 Sasquamo wrote:
I think this is a deceivingly simple question I'm about to ask:
If you don't care much for progressive metal, is it because you simply do not like metal, or because you don't like the result of the combination of metal and prog? Or is it a different reason?
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for most people its because they have listened to old school original prog bands and fusion for so long that when something heavy like psychotic waltz, dream theater, or pain of salvation hits them they are like WOA, a little too heavy for my tastes. But for me i love prog metal, its probably my favorite genre. I think enjoying this style comes from an equal appreciation of the two genres its composed of prog and metal.
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Peter
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Posted: April 02 2007 at 16:21 |
Certif1ed wrote:
As ever, no offence taken - I only question your views on Neo-Prog (wrong thread, I know...) in the hope that you'll be able to articulate where you hear the "regressive tendencies" - to talk more about it, so that I can understand what you mean, since it is so diametrically opposed to the way I hear it.
Even a know-all like me knows when he's digesting the words of a teacher... 
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 Certo, by way of wrapping up my contributions to this thread, I'll just clarify my take on neo prog by explaining that in the neo I've heard (Spock's Beard -- the Light, various Echolyn, IQ, Pendragon, etc), for me the overall sound and structure is very reminiscent of pioneering, classic prog. That does not mean I don't like it. I just feel that these acts, to a large extent, are following a "template" -- plowing in the old furrow, as opposed to really breaking any seriously new ground.
In Spock's Beard I hear Genesis as the most obvious point of reference, IQ ditto, Echolyn: Gentle Giant, Pendragon: 3rd-rate Genesis, etc. (Isn't hearkening back to the old sound one of the supposedly defining hallmarks of neo, according to this site?)
I think old proggers like Genesis, ELP, Yes, Crimson and Gentle Giant were real trail blazers (at least early in their respective careers), but I don't look to neo for that same level of daring creativity. (Thus the word "progressive," when applied to newer acts, can lead one down a blind alley if taken too literally. To me, it often implies "sounds much like the old music that used to be known as 'progressive."
Perhaps newer acts like GYBE and Mars Volta demonstrate that level of artistic ingenuity and a unique musical vision, but they aren't classed as "neo," are they? 
I love my IQ CDs, though!
 !
Edited by Peter Rideout - April 02 2007 at 16:26
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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StyLaZyn
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Joined: November 22 2005
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Posted: May 09 2007 at 21:37 |
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I like Prog Metal, but some bands that use that Cookie Monster style vocal are just a turn off. Opeth is a prime example. I like very few of their songs because of that annoying style. Otherwise, I think they are outstanding.
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man@arms
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Joined: March 31 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 238
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 11:54 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
I like Prog Metal, but some bands that use that Cookie Monster style vocal are just a turn off. Opeth is a prime example. I like very few of their songs because of that annoying style. Otherwise, I think they are outstanding. |
 You nailed it! The vocals are a definite problem for me, which is a shame since the music is often quite good. Getting past the vocals is the hard part.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 12:01 |
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^ listen to Symphony X ... Russell Allen has an awesome voice. Easily my favorite (Prog) Metal vocalist!
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debrewguy
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 12:18 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The only problem I see is that it's too Metal to be really Prog and too Prog to be really Metal, so some musicians get caught in the middle of a loud pompous and guitar virtuoso based genre and a normally softer but also pompous and virtuoso based genre.
The ego of a Metalhead and a Proghead together, exceed the dimension of any stage.
Iván |
What ? I can't hear you. Let me take this speaker out of my ear ... Ok, let's see ... if we replace guitar with keyboard in that last phrase , we get ?
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 12:21 |
man@arms wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
I like Prog Metal, but some bands that use that Cookie Monster style vocal are just a turn off. Opeth is a prime example. I like very few of their songs because of that annoying style. Otherwise, I think they are outstanding. |
You nailed it! The vocals are a definite problem for me, which is a shame since the music is often quite good. Getting past the vocals is the hard part. |
Yeah, it's kinda hard to take a vocal style best described by a Sesame Street reference 
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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magnus
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Joined: November 19 2006
Location: Norway
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 13:26 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ listen to Symphony X ... Russell Allen has an awesome voice. Easily my favorite (Prog) Metal vocalist!
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So true! I can't believe people are being turned off from prog metal by vocals! If one does not enjoy Mikael Åkerfeldt's growling vocals, there are many other, "clean" singers who are very enjoyable, such as the mentioned Russel Allen, and also Jørn Lande(Ark), Roy Khan(Kamelot and Conception), James LaBrie(Dream Theater, but beware, not all people enjoy his vocals equally), Maynard James Keenan(Tool), etc. etc....
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The scattered jigsaw of my redemption laid out before my eyes
Each piece as amorphous as the other - Each piece in its lack of shape a lie
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Yontar
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Joined: September 07 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 131
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 13:30 |
Take this into consideration. Could you hear one of opeth's super heavy sections with normal vocals??? I mean that would be freaking annoying. Death metal songs are meant to have vocals that fit their style. I could never imagine death or nile for example with a normal singer, even if that singer was fantastic. I mean it would sound idiotic. I understand what people are saying when they say that extreme metal vocals annoy them, but as chuck schuldiner said " just let the metal flow". Heavy music was never meant to have normal vocals, it just wouldn't match, and would you rather have music that fits your vocal preferences or music that coherently makes melodic sense.
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basically in a few words, prog metal owns!
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 13:34 |
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Mike Baker (Shadow Gallery) is outstanding too ... but an aquired taste. Geoff Tate (Queensryche) is brilliant and has a slight theatrical touch which reminds me of Peter Gabriel. Devin Townsend is an amazing vocalist - but not for everyone (he's very experimental and switches from brutal growls to high pitched screams to normal singing in an instant).
From non-prog metal there are DIO, Bruce Dickinson, Sebastian Bach (some don't like his attitude and I sympathize, however his voice is awesome). And of course there's the congenial Warrel Dane from Nevermore/Sanctuary - a combination of Geoff Tate and Rob Halford begins to describe his capabilities.
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StyLaZyn
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Joined: November 22 2005
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 13:41 |
Yontar wrote:
Take this into consideration. Could you hear one of opeth's super heavy sections with normal vocals??? I mean that would be freaking annoying. Death metal songs are meant to have vocals that fit their style. I could never imagine death or nile for example with a normal singer, even if that singer was fantastic. I mean it would sound idiotic. I understand what people are saying when they say that extreme metal vocals annoy them, but as chuck schuldiner said " just let the metal flow". Heavy music was never meant to have normal vocals, it just wouldn't match, and would you rather have music that fits your vocal preferences or music that coherently makes melodic sense. |
Yes, those Prog Metal bands with actual singing vocals exist as Mike points out. And yes, I CAN hear Opeth with normal vox and I think it would be quite enjoyable. Those forced Death Metal burp, or Cookie Monster, vocals are the most silly thing I've ever heard and don't serve a purpose other than effect, but that is my opinion. I don't think it would be idiotic at all. 
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Yontar
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Joined: September 07 2006
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Points: 131
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 14:57 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Yontar wrote:
Take this into consideration. Could you hear one of opeth's super heavy sections with normal vocals??? I mean that would be freaking annoying. Death metal songs are meant to have vocals that fit their style. I could never imagine death or nile for example with a normal singer, even if that singer was fantastic. I mean it would sound idiotic. I understand what people are saying when they say that extreme metal vocals annoy them, but as chuck schuldiner said " just let the metal flow". Heavy music was never meant to have normal vocals, it just wouldn't match, and would you rather have music that fits your vocal preferences or music that coherently makes melodic sense. |
Yes, those Prog Metal bands with actual singing vocals exist as Mike points out. And yes, I CAN hear Opeth with normal vox and I think it would be quite enjoyable. Those forced Death Metal burp, or Cookie Monster, vocals are the most silly thing I've ever heard and don't serve a purpose other than effect, but that is my opinion. I don't think it would be idiotic at all. |
woa!!! you got me all wrong!!! I didnt mean that prog metal in general should have death metal vocals throughout, i totally disagree with that! What i meant to say was that prog metal that is influenced by extreme metal styles such as death and black metal (opeth's main two influences besides prog and classic rock) should retain their vocals.As you can see in extreme progressive metal bands many of them use singing as a refrain for the softer parts or slower riffs in the song. Mikael for example chooses to sing only when the music needs singing behind it because it suits the mood of the music. Could you hear singing behind the main verse riff in master's apprentices???!!! I mean come on!!! I get so sick of this stuff. Metal is metal whether you like it or not, and most prog metal bands are slightly more influenced by metal than prog, FACE IT! I am a metalhead at heart who has happened to develop a total love for prog because of my interest in metal, and when i started listening to metal even those bands knew the appropriate times to sing, and the appropriate times to get heavy and let out some primal screams. Vocals more than any other instrument except maybe drums need to fit the music they are in front of. Queensryche or dream theater have geoff tate and james labrie, and bands like Opeth and Cynic have mikael and tony and paul. The reason those vocalists belong in those bands is because they fit the style or personal preferences of the band and they sound good in that setting. I sing and I used to do "cookie monster" vocals (which in the metal scene are called growls by the way), and they both convey the emotion and lyrical content, just in a different musical setting.
Edited by Yontar - May 10 2007 at 15:09
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basically in a few words, prog metal owns!
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StyLaZyn
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Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 14:59 |
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Owns what?
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Yontar
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Joined: September 07 2006
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Points: 131
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 15:11 |
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woa!!! you got me all wrong!!! I didnt mean that prog metal in general should have death metal vocals throughout, i totally disagree with that! What i meant to say was that prog metal that is influenced by extreme metal styles such as death and black metal (opeth's main two influences besides prog and classic rock) should retain their vocals.As you can see in extreme progressive metal bands many of them use singing as a refrain for the softer parts or slower riffs in the song. Mikael for example chooses to sing only when the music needs singing behind it because it suits the mood of the music. Could you hear singing behind the main verse riff in master's apprentices???!!! I mean come on!!! I get so sick of this stuff. Metal is metal whether you like it or not, and most prog metal bands are slightly more influenced by metal than prog, FACE IT! I am a metalhead at heart who has happened to develop a total love for prog because of my interest in metal, and when i started listening to metal even those bands knew the appropriate times to sing, and the appropriate times to get heavy and let out some primal screams. Vocals more than any other instrument except maybe drums need to fit the music they are in front of. Queensryche or dream theater have geoff tate and james labrie, and bands like Opeth and Cynic have mikael and tony and paul. The reason those vocalists belong in those bands is because they fit the style or personal preferences of the band and they sound good in that setting. I sing and I used to do "cookie monster" vocals (which in the metal scene are called growls by the way), and they both convey the emotion and lyrical content, just in a different musical setting.
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basically in a few words, prog metal owns!
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Yontar
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Joined: September 07 2006
Location: United States
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 15:12 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Owns what? |
he he, that's my signature lol. Just using my gamer language in real life.
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basically in a few words, prog metal owns!
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Atomic_Rooster
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Joined: December 26 2005
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Points: 1210
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 15:15 |
man@arms wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
I like Prog Metal, but some bands that use that Cookie Monster style vocal are just a turn off. Opeth is a prime example. I like very few of their songs because of that annoying style. Otherwise, I think they are outstanding. |
You nailed it! The vocals are a definite problem for me, which is a shame since the music is often quite good. Getting past the vocals is the hard part. |
I don't think that Cookie Monster vocals are bad in general, but many bands overuse it, its a technique to utilize for maximum effect, but they oversaturate with it. Also, many bands' singers just aren't very good at it, so it sounds comical (Ex: Trivium - ok so not prog metal but a popular metal band)
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I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers.
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Yontar
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 15:36 |
agreed, or may i suggest the mighty band origin who uses three different types of growled vocals, and uses them at different times in the music, and yes most heavy bands singers are not very good.
Edited by Yontar - May 10 2007 at 15:38
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basically in a few words, prog metal owns!
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Dirk
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 15:58 |
magnus wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ listen to Symphony X ... Russell Allen has an awesome voice. Easily my favorite (Prog) Metal vocalist!
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So true!
I can't believe people are being turned off from prog metal by vocals!
If one does not enjoy Mikael Åkerfeldt's growling vocals, there are many other, "clean" singers who are very enjoyable, such as the mentioned Russel Allen, and also Jørn Lande(Ark), Roy Khan(Kamelot and Conception), James LaBrie(Dream Theater, but beware, not all people enjoy his vocals equally), Maynard James Keenan(Tool), etc. etc....
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Indeed,when Mikael Akefeld's singing clear he's got a terrific voice i don't like his growling very much but i'm used to it now, Opeth is too good a band to ignore anyway.... I also agree with remarks about Russell Allen's voice , i' don't know Symphony X very well but i know his voice is great from his work for Ayreon (actually saw him live on the Star one tour).
Edited by Dirk - May 10 2007 at 15:59
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StyLaZyn
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Joined: November 22 2005
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 20:05 |
Yontar wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Owns what? |
he he, that's my signature lol. Just using my gamer language in real life. |
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Atomic_Rooster
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Posted: May 10 2007 at 20:13 |
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The problem with prog metal is that it smells bad.
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I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers.
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
The "problem" with prog metal
