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Quo Vadis Ukraine? |
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Prog-jester 
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Joined: June 05 2005 Location: Love Beach Status: Offline Points: 5909 |
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 Posted: October 13 2023 at 06:34 |
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Lol, lmao even |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Online Points: 21596 |
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Posted: October 13 2023 at 06:49 |
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Indeed. The phrase "you're either with us or against us" has been used several times here. You're either wedded to the mainstream narrative or a Russian asset, there is no middle ground. Once you step out of line it feels like you're being attacked by a pack of angry bulldogs. I have made a few mistakes in this thread and admitted them, but who cares? In crises like this (or COVID), tribal mob thinking reigns supreme. Like I said above, give it a month and then let's see what has happened. There's already many indications that the media is shifting their attention to other topics, which is another way to end the war. Because after all, if it's not on the news, it's not happening.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 13794 |
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Posted: October 13 2023 at 07:23 |
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My dear fellow, you were one of the people I was referring to! Edit - sorry, that probably came across as very rude. There does come a time when it is better to simply stop typing. Just end it. You have strong views, others do. None of them I can see include any nuance whatsoever, but what do I know? All I do know is that threads like this diminish even further the reputation of this website.
Edited by lazland - October 13 2023 at 07:27 |
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Online Points: 21596 |
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Posted: October 13 2023 at 07:40 |
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^ Fair enough, I guess it depends on what each of us sees as "nuanced". When I run a quick self-analysis, biased as it may be, I find myself trying to see not only both, but all sides of the argument. But when you write a comment, you never include all your positions in a disclaimer, so people are of course quick to fill out the gaps based on their expectations.
You're absolutely right though that this thread contains a lot of comments by me and others which probably had best never been typed.
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 19 2011 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 6801 |
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Posted: October 13 2023 at 11:16 |
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Israel steals Ukraine's spotlight. Who should I support?
Edited by omphaloskepsis - October 13 2023 at 11:16 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Posted: October 13 2023 at 12:34 |
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Edited by SteveG - October 13 2023 at 12:34 |
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 6801 |
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Posted: October 13 2023 at 12:51 |
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I supported a blonde, boy toy, bodybuilding ripped, artist. He was a beautiful poodle with a bad disposition. After that, I worked with a German Shepherd. He's loyal, licks my toes, and is good at guard duty. He labors hard and tends the herd...or haven't you heard? German Shepherds are marvelous family dogs. Achtung Baby!
Edited by omphaloskepsis - October 13 2023 at 13:12 |
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Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 43460 |
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Posted: October 13 2023 at 13:13 |
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U2 can have a sporty two-tone Trabant like mine.   |
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 6801 |
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Posted: October 13 2023 at 13:32 |
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Eye-C Ukraine Rushin back my way, back on topic. OK Boy, It's October. Make that two-tone Trabant. rattle and hum. Floor it, Paul!
Edited by omphaloskepsis - October 13 2023 at 15:57 |
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Prog-jester
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 05 2005 Location: Love Beach Status: Offline Points: 5909 |
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Posted: October 13 2023 at 15:16 |
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Zooropa and Pop are actually very good albums
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Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 43460 |
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Posted: October 13 2023 at 16:35 |
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My U2 Top 2:- Achtung Baby & The Joshua Tree.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65603 |
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Posted: October 13 2023 at 17:50 |
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They were incredible in '87, one of the best live rock bands in the world. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Online Points: 20414 |
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Posted: October 14 2023 at 02:16 |
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Yes, David. Saw them live for free when I climbed on my parent's rooftop in Edimburgh (they live close to Murrayfield) in 87, and it was awesome. They were on top of the world during the worst musical years (from 85 until 91)
I would add Rattle & Hum, and to a lesser extent Unforgettable Fire. (Red Blood Sky film is also good, but not about their best years) Oddly after AB, they changed and I coudn't follow them. From Pop onwards they became more insignificant with every new release, IMHO.
Edited by Sean Trane - October 14 2023 at 02:17 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Prog-jester
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 05 2005 Location: Love Beach Status: Offline Points: 5909 |
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Posted: October 14 2023 at 05:56 |
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^agree
And of I course I love The Joshua Tree, didn't mention it in my previous post since it's a given 
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 18066 |
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Posted: October 14 2023 at 08:28 |
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Hi, Being a foreigner and living in a strange land (sometimes it feels like that!!!) has been a problem for me since I came to America when I was 15 and the only thing I knew was "damn yankee" which I got from some music somewhere. The cultural shock was worse, and then high school was even worse. There is no "nuance" in America, since many of these folks think they are right and everybody else is wrong! And the "media" here, SPECIALLY, does not allow for "nuances" at all ... you become, automatically ... a minority to be dismissed and believed to be incorrect. Many of the arguments here I have on occasion are like that, when the "understanding" of what is being said, is not taken into consideration. It's just disappointing, on the best place there is in the world, and the one I have enjoyed and loved the most ... I just want to go back to the sequoias and dream again ... so much here to love ... but sometimes, many people have a way to try and destroy the beauty all over ... the world ... specially! Just like music and the arts and some ethnocentric attitudes. Someone from Sweden, could not possibly see things different. or someone from Egypt, or Israel ... maybe even Venus, or Mars!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Psychedelic Paul
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Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 43460 |
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Posted: October 14 2023 at 08:38 |
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Yes, I would rank The Unforgettable Fire and Rattle and Hum amongst my Top 4 U2 albums too.
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progaardvark
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Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Sea of Peas Status: Offline Points: 52608 |
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Posted: October 14 2023 at 13:26 |
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The last time I was on Mars, I noticed that they had this thing about vans, triglycerides, and soap bubbles.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
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Mirakaze
Special Collaborator
Eclectic, JRF/Canterbury, Avant/Zeuhl Joined: December 17 2019 Location: (redacted) Status: Offline Points: 4229 |
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Posted: October 15 2023 at 09:21 |
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1. Nuland makes zero mention of a coup or planning anything of the sort in said tape. 2.
Yatsenyuk actually rejected Yanukovych's offer to become prime minister
at the time when Nuland stated her preference for him to become PM. 3.
Yatsenyuk was the leader of the opposition since well before 2014 so he
was already the most likely person to assume the post of prime minister
if the opposition were to get into power.
This is a criticism you could level against
literally any country in the world. Russia still has cities named after
Catherine and streets named after Lenin and those weren't exactly
sweethearts. Likewise, the French still venerate Napoleon, the USA still
has people going out on the street to protect statues of Columbus and
Robert E. Lee and even in my country you can still find monuments to
colonial warlords who butchered thousands of people in Indonesia.
Eventually Ukraine too will have to face up to the ugly reality of the
people it's elevated as its national heroes, but is now really
the best time for that? Is it fair to expect them to settle that matter
as a prerequisite for aid or acknowledgment of their struggle,
especially when the dismal electoral performance of far-right parties in
Ukrainian elections combined with the fact that their current president
and most popular and iconic politician is a Jewish man who called
Poland a "sister nation" seems to suggest that Bandera's actual unsanitized views
aren't adhered to by a significant portion of the population?
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 6801 |
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Posted: October 15 2023 at 12:49 |
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What do you mean when you say: "That's all it is though: a truism." Should I say a lie? What deeper meaning is there about Russia, Ukraine, or America accomplishing goals by means of force? There isn't a deeper meaning. I like people who support Ukraine. My best guy friend (outside my husband) lives in Ukraine. We talk three times a week. That said, I don't want MY tax dollars supporting a war halfway around the world. I'm not alone. According to a recent CNN poll... CNN Poll: Majority of Americans oppose more US aid for Ukraine in war with Russiahttps://www.cnn.com/2023/08/04/politics/cnn-poll-ukraine/index.htmlI want peace. I want Ukraine to sign a peace deal with Russia. You've misperceived me. How have my statements confused you, Mirakaze? Perhaps, you confuse my stoic evaluation of what happens in the Russian/Ukraine war with my desire for the war to stop. I want the war to stop, yet I think if the war continues...Russia will take more territory and lives. Do you have a problem with me simultaneously holding both views, Mirakaze? I'm an evolutionary biologist and RN. As an RN I personally live a robust moral code. I care for the dying. I volunteer twice a month for the poor and destitute. I love the earth. This year, I planted over 20 trees. Mostly southern magnolia trees. As an evolutionary biologist, I see the big picture. Humans created morals. I already said this and much more earlier in this thread. I explained why morals and ethics are necessary for a society to run smoothly. For better or worse, I'm genetically wired to care for family, friends, and folks who suffer. I've never committed a crime. I don't run stop signs, speed, or park in handicap spaces. I don't cheat. Does that make me an evolutionary successful organism? Nope. I have only one genetic offspring. I'm a mediocre organism when it comes to Darwinian evolution. My point? I care for many things, yet I use my critical thinking skills to predict the most likely outcome...whether I approve of that outcome or not. As an RN, I use critical thinking skills, combined with empathy and love. I can do both at the same time. My side hustle? I've successfully traded stocks/commodities for two decades. Never had a losing year. I average a 27% gain per year. When I trade, I don't use empathy, feelings, or hope. I'm cold and calculated. I do it for a half hour...five times a week, between 2:30-3:00 PM, CDT. If I feel overly emotional...I do not trade, because I will lose my money. I lost my mom, my dad, my brother, and my dog three years ago. I didn't trade much that year. I had difficulty separating my critical thinking skills from my emotions. Any more comments or questions, Mirakaze? Edited by omphaloskepsis - October 15 2023 at 13:45 |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Online Points: 21596 |
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Posted: October 15 2023 at 13:51 |
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I think this is the fundamental problem: People like you and me believe that an immediate cease-fire and negotiations for a peace deal are the only way to end this war before it escalates. People like Prog-jester (correct me if I'm wrong) argue that this is just Russian propaganda designed to enable Putin to take the whole of Ukraine and then the world (hence calling him "Putler"). So as a consequence, anyone arguing for a peace deal is a threat to Ukraine. My problem with their position is the lack of an end game - suppose we win the war in Ukraine, what then? Will we simply wait to see whether Russia are serious with their resolve to use nuclear weapons in that case? My current prediction, just briefly (since I said I'll keep out of the thread until november, but wth): The US are already starting to pull out of the war, and this will accelerate quickly. They made their profits, on a military level there is nothing to be gained, and they don't want a real conflict with Russia. So they'll let Russia take more territory, thereby defeating Ukraine, and move on to the next target (China/Taiwan). Which would be another way to quickly end the war, I suppose. In that case I think that Putin will not take all of Ukraine, but make sure that western Ukraine never joins NATO. Quick reminder: None of what I said are things I wish for - I'm just stoicly stating what I think is likely to happen. Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 15 2023 at 14:18 |
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