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dtguitarfan View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

But how can a Maudlin of the Well album be any good if it isn't metal? *laughs hysterically*
Expectations are the death of many reviews...

Hardy har.  Guess what, I didn't rate the album low because it's not metal (though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying) - I rated it low because I dislike it for many of the same reasons I dislike Twilight: it's whiny and over-rated.  LOL
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Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

But how can a Maudlin of the Well album be any good if it isn't metal? *laughs hysterically*
Expectations are the death of many reviews...

Hardy har.  Guess what, I didn't rate the album low because it's not metal (though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying) - I rated it low because I dislike it for many of the same reasons I dislike Twilight: it's whiny and over-rated.  LOL


I'm not criticizing your rating.  Your rating and reason for it are fine- it bored you.  It's just that you clearly expected something more traditionally prog metal, at least as far as your review sounded.  I imagine that if the album had been labeled symphonic or RIO/Avant, you might not have reviewed it at all (or not reviewed it in the same fashion).
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Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying
Where are these top 10 lists?
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This brings back an old discussion: should people review albums belonging to a style they inherently don't like?
 
Even if the album is highly praised by fans of that particular style, if the reviewer simply does not like that style at all he will likely not be able to review it objectively enough (a separate discussion has been going on about objectivity / subjectivity) and he will most likely rate it low by definition.
With a bit of luck he will be clear enough to explain that the main reason he does not like the album is because he just does not like that kind of music, so probably that particular review will not be much different from any review he might do on any other album of that style.
 
I understand that everybody has the right to give his opinion about every album on the site but I wonder what's the value of such reviews. Well yes, they give another point of view and can help some people put things in perspective, but not much more than that.
 
I'm not a fan of Post Rock, from motW l have Bath, Leaving Your Body Map and Part the Second, and this last one is by far my favourite, honestly I don't fancy much Bath nor LYBM but PtS is a very good album.
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I do it sometimes. I think that if somebody likes something there may be a reason and I could be the wrong one.
Sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not, but when I approach an album outside of my fav genre in general it's an opportunity.

When I have joined the site I was sure that Prog Folk and Symphonic where my pot but currently I'm totally into Progressive Electronic and Zeuhl !!
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Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

But how can a Maudlin of the Well album be any good if it isn't metal? *laughs hysterically*
Expectations are the death of many reviews...
Hardy har.  Guess what, I didn't rate the album low because it's not metal (though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying) - I rated it low because I dislike it for many of the same reasons I dislike Twilight: it's whiny and over-rated.  LOL



Reading my reply back, I may have come across a tad too snotty and I apologise for that, but you did use nearly two thirds of your review speaking about how much you are into metal and by now are quite the connoisseur. Hell I talk about the most silly of things whenever I review music, but I always have the album at hand in my thoughts, because generally speaking that's where the inspiration came from. I maybe wrong in your case, but it just seemed like your expectations weren't met because you were counting on it to be metal. I am actually not the biggest fan of this album too, maybe would have given it a 3, but no matter the genre, it still is what it is, and any misconceptions about what one encounters musically in a given album will always be on account of one's own mistakes.
Plus I was mostly laughing at Rob's way of highlighting the review actually.
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

I do it sometimes. I think that if somebody likes something there may be a reason and I could be the wrong one.
Sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not, but when I approach an album outside of my fav genre in general it's an opportunity.

When I have joined the site I was sure that Prog Folk and Symphonic where my pot but currently I'm totally into Progressive Electronic and Zeuhl !!
 
 
You misunderstood me. I certainly go out listen to albums which do not belong to my favourite styles but are praised by connoisseurs of that kind of music and i encourage doing so, I have also discovered a lot of great music in this way and it has diversified my tastes which is great.
 
I meant that as long as long as you didn't get to grips yet with anything in that style and you simply don't like it, what's the point in reviewing albums from that style, just to say "well guys I do not like this kind of music so I find nothing worth in this album".
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I don't have a problem with people reviewing albums they don't like, though I do struggle to understand the masochism necessary to rate and review several albums from subgenres they clearly either don't like or don't appreciate. Often a negative review can point out the flaws in an album that the tru-fans conveniently overlook when praising it, as always it is necessary to filter out some of the rhetoric and hyperbole to glean something of value from any review. I don't have to agree with the review to do that, I just need to recognise an honest opinion when I see it.
 
motW are not a Progressive Metal band so reviewing them from that perspective is bound to be negative, especially if the reviewer has no affinity with (or appreciation/understanding of) Avant Garde Metal, Post Metal or Post Rock. and that is never going to be vanilla Progressive Metal which is why we have them in Experimental/Post Metal and not in Progressive Metal.
 
Geoff spends most his review setting out his CV as an expert on Progressive Metal, (I attended the last ProgPowerUK festival and would have gone to more if they had continued - alas they did not, and I also hover over vendor stalls at these events looking for that special release that I've somehow managed to miss, but none of that makes me an expert, just another fan dressed in black with more Prog and Prog Metal CDs than have room to store), but  he doesn't make any distinction between the whole vista of metal artists that fall under the umbrella of metal bands that are progressive in nature - between the (let's call it Traditional) Progressive Metal of Dream Theatre and Ayreon, the Post Metal of Alcest or Neurosis, or the Extreme Metal of Edge of Sanity or Opeth. Being a self-proclaimed expert on (Traditional) Progressive Metal does not imply expertise in other subgenres however closely related they may be. And that for me negates the whole validity of the two sentences that actually talk about the album being reviewed.
 
The other issue is of course how subjectivity is used, and in this case how relativity is used. It is fine to have an opinion however positive or negative that opinion is, it is another thing to openly question everyone else's subjective opinion in a review and make that out to be the result of some kind of peer pressure, which is really just accusing all the other people who reviewed the album of being disingenuous.
 
Technically this review fails the Prog Archives Review Guidelines, while it does not directly criticise individuals or question genre placement, it does by general implication.
 
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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying
Where are these top 10 lists?

he is refering to those lists you see  in top tens in the forum. For example there  is a top ten progressive metal one.



Edited by Snow Dog - May 19 2012 at 05:50
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Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying
Where are these top 10 lists?

he is refering to those lists you see  in top tens in the forum. For example there  is a top ten progressive metal one.

Thumbs Up
 
Andy's post there says all I need to say:
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

If we're going by all three subs then something like this:
  1. Pain of Salvation- The Perfect Element
  2. Opeth- Blackwater Park
  3. Between the Buried and Me- The Great Misdirect
  4. maudlin of the Well- Leaving Your Body Map
  5. The Pax Cecilia- Blessed are the Bonds
  6. Fen- Epoch
  7. Burst- Lazarus Bird
  8. Virgin Black- Requiem Mezzo Forte
  9. In the Woods...- Liveatthecaledonianhall
  10. Intronaut- Valley of Smoke

If Its just vanilla prog metal then these:

  1. Pain of Salvation- The Perfect Element
  2. Riverside- Anno Domini High Defenition
  3. To-Mera- Earthbound
  4. Dream Theater- Scenes From a Memory: Metropolis Pt2
  5. Dream Theater- Images and Words
  6. Vanden Plas- The God Thing
  7. To-Mera- Delusions
  8. Diablo Swing Orchestra- Sing Along Songs for the Damned and Delerious
  9. Symphony X- V: The New Mythology Suite
  10. Epica- The Divine Conspiracy
Approve
 
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Although I'm not much into these styles I think that Part the Second should not be listed in any lists containing the word "metal" (Bath and Leaving Your Body Map certainly can as long as people stretch their understanding of "metal" to include Post Rock / Post Metal / Experimental / Avant Metal / MIO (aka Metal In Opposition) or whatever you want to call it).

Edited by Gerinski - May 19 2012 at 06:12
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^ agreed.
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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
Technically this review fails the Prog Archives Review Guidelines, while it does not directly criticise individuals or question genre placement, it does by general implication.
 
 
 
I think it does question genre placement but this is something we have learned to live with since genre is defined by band not by album. Genesis We Can't Dance is placed under Symphonic but by now I don't think anybody knowing how the site works will make a big fuss about it in a review.
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Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

But how can a Maudlin of the Well album be any good if it isn't metal? *laughs hysterically*
Expectations are the death of many reviews...
Hardy har.  Guess what, I didn't rate the album low because it's not metal (though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying) - I rated it low because I dislike it for many of the same reasons I dislike Twilight: it's whiny and over-rated.  LOL



Reading my reply back, I may have come across a tad too snotty and I apologise for that, but you did use nearly two thirds of your review speaking about how much you are into metal and by now are quite the connoisseur. Hell I talk about the most silly of things whenever I review music, but I always have the album at hand in my thoughts, because generally speaking that's where the inspiration came from. I maybe wrong in your case, but it just seemed like your expectations weren't met because you were counting on it to be metal. I am actually not the biggest fan of this album too, maybe would have given it a 3, but no matter the genre, it still is what it is, and any misconceptions about what one encounters musically in a given album will always be on account of one's own mistakes.
Plus I was mostly laughing at Rob's way of highlighting the review actually.

Ah, no, I'm sorry dude - when I wrote that review I was anticipating someone trashing me in the forums and when I saw the almost instant reaction I came in ready to fight for my honor. LOL
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Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying
Where are these top 10 lists?

he is refering to those lists you see  in top tens in the forum. For example there  is a top ten progressive metal one.


It's not just that post either, I have seen in a number of other threads when I, or someone else, asked for recommendations, specifying that they liked things that clearly fall in the Progressive Metal category, MoTW always seems to get thrown in.  Hey, I don't mind recommendations, but when you're dealing with a Prog Metal fan maybe you should preface your MoTW recommendation with a disclaimer that they're not really metal...unless you have a really good imagination? LOL
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Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

But how can a Maudlin of the Well album be any good if it isn't metal? *laughs hysterically*
Expectations are the death of many reviews...
Hardy har.  Guess what, I didn't rate the album low because it's not metal (though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying) - I rated it low because I dislike it for many of the same reasons I dislike Twilight: it's whiny and over-rated.  LOL



Reading my reply back, I may have come across a tad too snotty and I apologise for that, but you did use nearly two thirds of your review speaking about how much you are into metal and by now are quite the connoisseur. Hell I talk about the most silly of things whenever I review music, but I always have the album at hand in my thoughts, because generally speaking that's where the inspiration came from. I maybe wrong in your case, but it just seemed like your expectations weren't met because you were counting on it to be metal. I am actually not the biggest fan of this album too, maybe would have given it a 3, but no matter the genre, it still is what it is, and any misconceptions about what one encounters musically in a given album will always be on account of one's own mistakes.
Plus I was mostly laughing at Rob's way of highlighting the review actually.

Ah, no, I'm sorry dude - when I wrote that review I was anticipating someone trashing me in the forums and when I saw the almost instant reaction I came in ready to fight for my honor. LOL


Hey man no biggie - I was also pretty provocative. 
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^^ you do need to insert Kayo Dot between Bath / Leaving Your Body Map and Part the Second, then it makes more sense. They are in Post Metal for the former albums, not the latest - we cannot split bands between two subgenres so they go in the one that is most representative of their key "era", which is Avant/Post metal.

Edited by Dean - May 19 2012 at 07:00
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Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

though I find the fact that so many people here keep including them in "top 10" metal related lists to be annoying
Where are these top 10 lists?

he is refering to those lists you see  in top tens in the forum. For example there  is a top ten progressive metal one.


It's not just that post either, I have seen in a number of other threads when I, or someone else, asked for recommendations, specifying that they liked things that clearly fall in the Progressive Metal category, MoTW always seems to get thrown in.  Hey, I don't mind recommendations, but when you're dealing with a Prog Metal fan maybe you should preface your MoTW recommendation with a disclaimer that they're not really metal...unless you have a really good imagination? LOL

I never said it was just that one, hence my words "for example".
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I don't know if this has been touched on before, but ...

Is it cool if a person repeats a paragraph in more than one review?



Edited by Dayvenkirq - May 19 2012 at 13:41
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No, it's not cool, but what can you do? It's not against the rules or anything - both reviews would exceed 100 words without the superflous repeated paragraph, so it's not pointless waffle.
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