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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 03:37 |
Fieldofsorrow wrote:
Some people have questioned in the past what makes Dream Theater progressive, and whilst I think there are numerous reasons why they are innovative band, it all boils down to one concept. They are progressive metal, because nobody played metal like they did at the time. By 1992, their music contained an eclectic source of influences, meticulous rhythmic coordination, a highly respected level of instrumental virtuosity within the realms of metal, and a polish that I think was rarely heard in metal up until that point. They played an advanced game, and I&W started a chain reaction of clone albums. It remains today a phenomenon, as bands strive to replicate the sound.
So, that answers the 'prog' half of the equation for me. As for the legendary status, I think a lot of people have summed it up very well - their recognition in the mainstream, maintained musical integrity, sustained career, and the fact that so many who detest their music point to them as the benchmark of a widening sub-genre of progressive rock, all equate to an undeniable conclusion that the boys have reached the towering heights of revered, legitimate legends of prog.
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A very well constructed and thought through post that will be completely ignored by the plankton savagery of the hippies and fan boys alas. (Don't waste your key-strokes FieldofSorrow, 'reasonable' and 'good humoured' debate is for adults and has no place here. Regardless of how many emoticons they use, it cannot camouflage immature bigotry ) What enjoyment anyone can glean from such debates beggars belief ? Close the thread and nuke these critters.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 06:54 |
rushfan4 wrote:
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If you would like to attach names to those quotes I could probably break each one of them down as what they are. Yeah if Ivan said this, Or Sean Trane said that. Or you or Raff said the other things, they perfectly make sense because you all dislike DT for your own various reason. My opinions of these are 100% the exact opposite. I would much rather listen to an album like Scenes From A Memory which makes perfect sense than I would a classic like Lamb Lies Down which makes absolutely no sense. The only thing that seems to make sense in that one is that at one point he is swimming in a sea of cut-off penises that are then eaten by the things in the water with them and it poisons them. I'm sorry but I would much rather a ghost story about a murder that took place in the pass than a story about chopped off penises. And yet, Genesis and the Lamb are legendary. And by the way, most of your comments regarding Genesis would be similar because as I recall you consider them to be a real snooze fest.
What I really, really don't understand is how you can be such a big fan of ELP and yet hate Dream Theater. Dream Theater are easily the rightful heir to what ELP was doing in the 70's. (I can't speak regarding all of ELP's RPI clones since I haven't started listening to that pasta prog yet). [/QUOTE] First off , that quote is not from either of us (I haven't reviewed SFaM yet, nor do I intend to - I have over 50 CDs to be reviewed at home, and more to come ). And neither of us likes The Lamb either - I find it one of the most boring albums I've ever heard, and believe Tales from Topographic Oceans (which is not a favourite of mine either) is vastly superior. So, I'm afraid you've got the wrong people here.. As to ELP, I fail to see in which way DT can be their rightful heirs. In my opinion, if a modern band can be compared to ELP, it's not DT, but rather The Mars Volta (check my review of The Bedlam in Goliath if you want) - a band I love to death btw. Anyway, for your information, in RPI there are no ELP clones - you're probably confusing them with some Japanese band. On a personal note, I can't say I am too keen on seeing Italian music being defined as 'pasta', but perhaps that's just me.
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 07:07 |
Admin note:
Some peoples' chalk is other peoples' cheese - for some reason DT are one of those bands which do tend to polarise opinion & such a discussion is always going to get heated, which in itself, is not a problem per se. That said, however, there are certain remarks being made in this thread which border on personal attacks.
Lively debate is one thing but please do not cross the line here - keep the debate active, lively if necessary, but above all civil.
Many thanks.
Jim Garten
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 08:34 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Fieldofsorrow wrote:
Some people have questioned in the past what makes Dream Theater progressive, and whilst I think there are numerous reasons why they are innovative band, it all boils down to one concept. They are progressive metal, because nobody played metal like they did at the time. By 1992, their music contained an eclectic source of influences, meticulous rhythmic coordination, a highly respected level of instrumental virtuosity within the realms of metal, and a polish that I think was rarely heard in metal up until that point. They played an advanced game, and I&W started a chain reaction of clone albums. It remains today a phenomenon, as bands strive to replicate the sound.
So, that answers the 'prog' half of the equation for me. As for the legendary status, I think a lot of people have summed it up very well - their recognition in the mainstream, maintained musical integrity, sustained career, and the fact that so many who detest their music point to them as the benchmark of a widening sub-genre of progressive rock, all equate to an undeniable conclusion that the boys have reached the towering heights of revered, legitimate legends of prog.
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A very well constructed and thought through post that will be completely ignored by the plankton savagery of the hippies and fan boys alas. (Don't waste your key-strokes FieldofSorrow, 'reasonable' and 'good humoured' debate is for adults and has no place here. Regardless of how many emoticons they use, it cannot camouflage immature bigotry)
What enjoyment anyone can glean from such debates beggars belief ? Close the thread and nuke these critters.
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I don't know how I miss Fieldofsorrow post... I think his logic explains a lot and I do prefer to stay focus in the topic and not comment which ELP album is my favorite or if I love The Mars Volta... I think most of the comparissons have been made out of topic... I mean, I won't rate the achievements of Dream Theater by counting how many Special Collaborators have reviewed King Crimson or Genesis, or how many albums DT have to bring out to become a legend... check the post of Fieldofsorrow and you will get what I want to say...
Edited by jampa17 - February 19 2010 at 08:36
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66331
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:20 |
Raff wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
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If you would like to attach names to those quotes I could probably break each one of them down as what they are. Yeah if Ivan said this, Or Sean Trane said that. Or you or Raff said the other things, they perfectly make sense because you all dislike DT for your own various reason. My opinions of these are 100% the exact opposite. I would much rather listen to an album like Scenes From A Memory which makes perfect sense than I would a classic like Lamb Lies Down which makes absolutely no sense. The only thing that seems to make sense in that one is that at one point he is swimming in a sea of cut-off penises that are then eaten by the things in the water with them and it poisons them. I'm sorry but I would much rather a ghost story about a murder that took place in the pass than a story about chopped off penises. And yet, Genesis and the Lamb are legendary. And by the way, most of your comments regarding Genesis would be similar because as I recall you consider them to be a real snooze fest.
What I really, really don't understand is how you can be such a big fan of ELP and yet hate Dream Theater. Dream Theater are easily the rightful heir to what ELP was doing in the 70's. (I can't speak regarding all of ELP's RPI clones since I haven't started listening to that pasta prog yet). |
First off , that quote is not from either of us (I haven't reviewed SFaM yet, nor do I intend to - I have over 50 CDs to be reviewed at home, and more to come ). And neither of us likes The Lamb either - I find it one of the most boring albums I've ever heard, and believe Tales from Topographic Oceans (which is not a favourite of mine either) is vastly superior. So, I'm afraid you've got the wrong people here.. As to ELP, I fail to see in which way DT can be their rightful heirs. In my opinion, if a modern band can be compared to ELP, it's not DT, but rather The Mars Volta (check my review of The Bedlam in Goliath if you want) - a band I love to death btw. Anyway, for your information, in RPI there are no ELP clones - you're probably confusing them with some Japanese band. On a personal note, I can't say I am too keen on seeing Italian music being defined as 'pasta', but perhaps that's just me. [/QUOTE]
Personally, I fail to see any connection between The Mars Volta and ELP. But I guess that is just me. I have no personal knowledge regarding RPI. My comments were strictly based on past conversation that I had with Micky. Also, the reference to 'pasta' prog is also a Mickyism.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:25 |
I suppose I have to apologise to you for the last quote . Hope you won't hold it against me. Anyway, I believe I'd better steer clear of this thread from now on, since it seems it's not easy to have a constructive discussion about anything (and I'm NOT referring to anything you said, Scott - just a general remark).
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66331
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:38 |
DT are a polarizing subject that continuously rear their ugly head on this site. Hence, my string of threads that attempt to discuss albums from bands other than DT, PT, Genesis, Yes, etc. etc. However, despite my best efforts, I can't seem to get those threads to go past more than 2 or 3 pages. And they generally die one post at a time, with the majority of posts being me revisiting the thread to bump it. I tried really hard to avoid this thread for two or three days, but I finally caved in to the "if you can't beat them join them" mentality and posted my thoughts on this subject. I would much rather talk about Shadow Circus' new album however.
Edited by rushfan4 - February 19 2010 at 09:39
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progmetalhead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 15 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 2081
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:52 |
rushfan4 wrote:
DT are a polarizing subject that continuously rear their ugly head on this site. Hence, my string of threads that attempt to discuss albums from bands other than DT, PT, Genesis, Yes, etc. etc. However, despite my best efforts, I can't seem to get those threads to go past more than 2 or 3 pages. And they generally die one post at a time, with the majority of posts being me revisiting the thread to bump it. I tried really hard to avoid this thread for two or three days, but I finally caved in to the "if you can't beat them join them" mentality and posted my thoughts on this subject. I would much rather talk about Shadow Circus' new album however. |
Yes Scott I agree.
It's a shame that individuals who prefer the Symphonic Rock sub-genre (I guess we all do to some degree) won't contribute positively to the thread you mention (and others you have created) but prefer to be negative on a subject/band they don't actually like
No offence intended
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Kashmir75
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 25 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1029
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 19:13 |
Since I'm too young to remember, were Yes, Genesis, etc considered legends back in the day? When they were in their prime, and still recording? We will probably have to wait until DT haven't been around for a while until we can see how far their influence goes. I think they've still got several albums in them yet before they give up.
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 19:18 |
Kashmir75 wrote:
Since I'm too young to remember, were Yes, Genesis, etc considered legends back in the day? When they were in their prime, and still recording? We will probably have to wait until DT haven't been around for a while until we can see how far their influence goes. I think they've still got several albums in them yet before they give up. |
Damn.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 36152
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 19:20 |
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 21:30 |
progmetalhead wrote:
It's a shame that individuals who prefer the Symphonic Rock sub-genre (I guess we all do to some degree)
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Not me! :P
Wadada Leo Smith, Evan Parker, and Peter Brotzmann are still recording albums, I wonder if DT will be too when they're 68. Hell, Ornette Coleman released an album a few years ago and he's over 75, but that wasn't new material so I'm not sure it really counts.
Edited by Henry Plainview - February 19 2010 at 21:38
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19552
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 23:17 |
progmetalhead wrote:
Yes Scott I agree.
It's a shame that individuals who prefer the Symphonic Rock sub-genre (I guess we all do to some degree) won't contribute positively to the thread you mention (and others you have created) but prefer to be negative on a subject/band they don't actually like
No offence intended
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Maybe because some of us have already do our parts in different ways, and ready to do more, I have a good friendship with John Fontana, already reviewed his two excellent albums here and Welcome to the Freakroom in Progressive Ears.
I'm preparing a conference about Shadow Circus in coordination with John for 70 Peruvian Progheads members of La Lata who only know abut the band because I introduced them to this excellent band, and John will send me video material so we can present it to the public.
The threads should be useful, but sadly almost always are ignored, I started with HT a thread about Forgotten Gems and another one og new artists (precisely about Anton Roolaart, Eggroll from Israel and Shadow Circus), and both lasted 3 days after HT and I were the only ones posting, but when a barely related band is suggested for PR, we reach ten pages.
So it's better to do the work directly with the musicians, as some of us do.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 20 2010 at 00:27
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Fieldofsorrow
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 27 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 220
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Posted: February 20 2010 at 02:10 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Fieldofsorrow wrote:
Some people have questioned in the past what makes Dream Theater progressive, and whilst I think there are numerous reasons why they are innovative band, it all boils down to one concept. They are progressive metal, because nobody played metal like they did at the time. By 1992, their music contained an eclectic source of influences, meticulous rhythmic coordination, a highly respected level of instrumental virtuosity within the realms of metal, and a polish that I think was rarely heard in metal up until that point. They played an advanced game, and I&W started a chain reaction of clone albums. It remains today a phenomenon, as bands strive to replicate the sound.
So, that answers the 'prog' half of the equation for me. As for the legendary status, I think a lot of people have summed it up very well - their recognition in the mainstream, maintained musical integrity, sustained career, and the fact that so many who detest their music point to them as the benchmark of a widening sub-genre of progressive rock, all equate to an undeniable conclusion that the boys have reached the towering heights of revered, legitimate legends of prog.
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A very well constructed and thought through post that will be completely ignored by the plankton savagery of the hippies and fan boys alas. (Don't waste your key-strokes FieldofSorrow, 'reasonable' and 'good humoured' debate is for adults and has no place here. Regardless of how many emoticons they use, it cannot camouflage immature bigotry)
What enjoyment anyone can glean from such debates beggars belief ? Close the thread and nuke these critters.
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I thank you kindly, ExittheLemming, I spent a good while tuning my articulation with that analysis and I was beginning to fear that it would receive no recognition whatsoever! I must confess I'm finding it difficult to find a substantial debate in many threads here that concern dreams or theatres, let alone one which insightfully discusses both at the same time.
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Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband
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progmetalhead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 15 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 2081
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Posted: February 20 2010 at 02:59 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
progmetalhead wrote:
Yes Scott I agree.
It's a shame that individuals who prefer the Symphonic Rock sub-genre (I guess we all do to some degree) won't contribute positively to the thread you mention (and others you have created) but prefer to be negative on a subject/band they don't actually like
No offence intended
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Maybe because some of us have already do our parts in different ways, and ready to do more, I have a good friendship with John Fontana, already reviewed his two excellent albums here and Welcome to the Freakroom in Progressive Ears.
I'm preparing a conference about Shadow Circus in coordination with John for 70 Peruvian Progheads members of La Lata who only know abut the band because I introduced them to this excellent band, and John will send me video material so we can present it to the public.
The threads should be useful, but sadly almost always are ignored, I started with HT a thread about Forgotten Gems and another one og new artists (precisely about Anton Roolaart, Eggroll from Israel and Shadow Circus), and both lasted 3 days after HT and I were the only ones posting, but when a barely related band is suggested for PR, we reach ten pages.
So it's better to do the work directly with the musicians, as some of us do.
Iván
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Thats also a shame Ivan.
I for one would be keen for you to impart your knowledge within some sort of thread, Scott's or similar.
I would also do my best to support it.
I came across a proto-metal band just the other day called Jerusalem that released an album managed and produced by the (dare I say - legendary) Ian Gillan in 1972. (Check these out Pablo! ) Nothing to do with Prog per se but will sit nicely in my collection when it arrives. It is exactly finds like that and many I find here on PA either recommended or researched that make being here worthwhile.
Maybe you will have a rethink on a "Forgotten Gems" thread ? Perhaps?
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Alberto Muńoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: February 20 2010 at 08:04 |
progmetalhead wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
progmetalhead wrote:
Yes Scott I agree.
It's a shame that individuals who prefer the Symphonic Rock sub-genre (I guess we all do to some degree) won't contribute positively to the thread you mention (and others you have created) but prefer to be negative on a subject/band they don't actually like
No offence intended
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Maybe because some of us have already do our parts in different ways, and ready to do more, I have a good friendship with John Fontana, already reviewed his two excellent albums here and Welcome to the Freakroom in Progressive Ears.
I'm preparing a conference about Shadow Circus in coordination with John for 70 Peruvian Progheads members of La Lata who only know abut the band because I introduced them to this excellent band, and John will send me video material so we can present it to the public.
The threads should be useful, but sadly almost always are ignored, I started with HT a thread about Forgotten Gems and another one og new artists (precisely about Anton Roolaart, Eggroll from Israel and Shadow Circus), and both lasted 3 days after HT and I were the only ones posting, but when a barely related band is suggested for PR, we reach ten pages.
So it's better to do the work directly with the musicians, as some of us do.
Iván
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Thats also a shame Ivan.
I for one would be keen for you to impart your knowledge within some sort of thread, Scott's or similar.
I would also do my best to support it.
I came across a proto-metal band just the other day called Jerusalem that released an album managed and produced by the (dare I say - legendary) Ian Gillan in 1972. (Check these out Pablo! ) Nothing to do with Prog per se but will sit nicely in my collection when it arrives. It is exactly finds like that and many I find here on PA either recommended or researched that make being here worthwhile.
Maybe you will have a rethink on a "Forgotten Gems" thread ? Perhaps? |
Ivan, i support that idea too.
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Richard House
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 78
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Posted: February 20 2010 at 19:57 |
You all have valid points and I respect all of your opinions, I am glad there are so many free thinking music lovers that would respond to my thoughts, Thank you all. and rock on!
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Rock is dead. Long live paper and scissors!
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Richard House
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 78
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Posted: February 20 2010 at 20:33 |
I love The Lamb. I saw the very show that they put on the box set, from The Shrine Auditorium in L.A. One thing you must understand about Genesis and Peter Gabriel in particular, is that they paint pictures with stories, very vivid and artistic thoughts. Genesis has my utmost respect because their shows were better than the actual studio albums. I judge any band from what they do live to reproduce (extend, improve, deliver), their studio work. Yes, Genesis, ELP, all had awesome live shows that really shined on their immediate talents. I was very lucky in my younger days to be witness to many truly epic live shows. I take pride in playing live and being true to the music that one represents. Do not be too hard on what you don't understand,i.e.,(The Lamb), I am very open to music in general, and will listen to ANYTHING once. I am 52 years old and have relocated from L.A, Ca. area to So. Illinois and am playing with guys my kids age.(early 20's). Music is universal, and if you accept ideas from all aspects, you will broaden your horizons, and be educated further as well. Music is therapy for the soul, and I, for one, am better off from being open minded. As I write this, I am listening to King Crimson- Discipline, by the way.
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Rock is dead. Long live paper and scissors!
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 06:00 |
Kashmir75 wrote:
We will probably have to wait until DT haven't been around for a while until we can see how far their influence goes. I think they've still got several albums in them yet before they give up. |
That is a very good point - it's difficult to judge a band's influence/ legendary status whilst they are still (arguably) at the peak of their career.
The real test will be in about 30/40 years time... will people look back at (say) Octavarium with the same degree of respect (reverence? ) as they do with albums like Selling England By The Pound?
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 06:41 |
^Considering that on it's release many many prog fans didn't look at it with a great degree of respect, me thinks it's a bit of a stretch for the album to be considered highly revered in 30-40 years time That being said, Awake is nearly 16 years old and stands as a true classic in the prog metal genre and to some extent even the wider prog community and it's only 14 years off from the 30 year mark, compared to Octavarium's 25 years
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