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What is happening in Jerusalem?

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tszirmay View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 07:42
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Would it be more appropriate to say that the Israelis learned nothing from history when it comes to violations of a Palestinian's civil rights, instead of bringing up the Nazi atrocities?

Likewise could be said of the Palestinians too.  Is it only the Jews who are obliged to learn from Nazis while others get a free pass to indulge in pogroms, genocides, etc?  To echo what Lewian said, I can sympathize with Palestine but not Hamas.  Hamas is just as clear a terror organization as there will be.
Exactly! The problem is that Palestinian leadership has been fraught with mistakes, blunders, bravado, authoritarianism and plain stupidity. A gentler and non-violent approach would do it wonders and immense credibility. Screaming Death to Jews when they have the fist is outright stupid. That is where my posts have been aiming at all along, if you would be bothered to read them properly. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 07:44
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Would it be more appropriate to say that the Israelis learned nothing from history when it comes to violations of a Palestinian's civil rights, instead of bringing up the Nazi atrocities?

Likewise could be said of the Palestinians too.  Is it only the Jews who are obliged to learn from Nazis while others get a free pass to indulge in pogroms, genocides, etc?  To echo what Lewian said, I can sympathize with Palestine but not Hamas.  Hamas is just as clear a terror organization as there will be.
Exactly! The problem is that Palestinian leadership has been fraught with mistakes, blunders, bravado, authoritarianism and plain stupidity. A gentler and non-violent approach would do it wonders and immense credibility. Screaming Death to Jews when they have the fist is outright stupid. That is where my posts have been aiming at all along, if you would be bothered to read them properly. 

And I was with you until you resorted to this: "Perhaps the best solution for many would be for the "clueless" Israelis to move out en masse and leave permanently"

This was completely unwarranted and whiny to the core.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 07:45
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Yes it did make it urgent but that is not what you stated earlier. The movement towards Israel happened after the Balfour Declaration in 1917 at a time when WW1 was still raging and Adolf was running from trench to trench with dispatches. I avoided debating you? Because maybe you are right? You are in no position to judge me as I offer no opinion other than historical precedent that seemingly you dislike. For you history is a slice and dice cut-out that fits your narrative. Passive-aggressive, I am not, I assure you.  As far as your continuing snide personal attacks are concerned , here is a quote from Talleyrand that may be appropriate " Quand je me regarde, dans le mirroir,  je me désole. Quand je me compare aux autres, je me console” 


When I look in the mirror, I worry. When I compare myself to others, I am reassured.




You started with personal attacks and then called me a muffin so please don't condescend to lecture me. 

Look, I am not a historian and I am not going to use pedantically accurate terminology. If you want to nitpick that I shouldn't have said WW2, fine.  I said it very clearly with the first post where I discussed this idea and I mentioned anti Semitism in Europe.  But ssmarcus would not even agree with that as a trigger point.  I never said at any point that the idea of Israel as a native land for all Jews didn't exist prior to WW2 or even WW1.  All I said is anti semitism made it necessary and whatever reservations people may have had about the idea had to be brushed aside because the persecution of Jews essentially proved the Zionists right. But that does not mean the idea of an ethnocentric state is not controversial and it is even more so today. If you say that because you used to live there once upon a time, you have a right to come back and self determine as a separate state, that idea will always be controversial.  What really happened is much more complex but please understand that the above simplistic formulation is what ssmarcus presented as just and fair and I am obliged to counter him. 
And you cannot teach me about action vs reaction. Lesson #1 in Law School. The great thing is that its easily verifiable who started denigrating the other. I was tired of your bellicose wording and decide to use some levity, which you also don't like. Oh well If you have no sense of humour, that is not my fault. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 07:55
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Would it be more appropriate to say that the Israelis learned nothing from history when it comes to violations of a Palestinian's civil rights, instead of bringing up the Nazi atrocities?

Likewise could be said of the Palestinians too.  Is it only the Jews who are obliged to learn from Nazis while others get a free pass to indulge in pogroms, genocides, etc?  To echo what Lewian said, I can sympathize with Palestine but not Hamas.  Hamas is just as clear a terror organization as there will be.
Exactly! The problem is that Palestinian leadership has been fraught with mistakes, blunders, bravado, authoritarianism and plain stupidity. A gentler and non-violent approach would do it wonders and immense credibility. Screaming Death to Jews when they have the fist is outright stupid. That is where my posts have been aiming at all along, if you would be bothered to read them properly. 

And I was with you until you resorted to this: "Perhaps the best solution for many would be for the "clueless" Israelis to move out en masse and leave permanently"

This was completely unwarranted and whiny to the core.

Thank you, I will confess my sins later! Whiny, hahahaha ! Thank you again , love it. As for the previous comment, this is the position of Hamas, Hezbollah, Isis, AlQaida and a boatload of millions of others calling for the expulsion of Israelis if not their destruction . Its in the Hamas charter as you very well know .  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 08:01
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Thank you, I will confess my sins later! Whiny, hahahaha ! Thank you again , love it. As for the previous comment, this is the position of Hamas, Hezbollah, Isis, AlQaida and a boatload of millions of others calling for the expulsion of Israelis if not their destruction . Its in the Hamas charter as you very well know .  

So basically anyone who dares ask how the Zionist position is justified is automatically a Hamas recruit, got it. This is how people like you have always tried to silence the debate...by deliberately escalating it so that you can accuse others of 'personal attacks' and play victim.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 08:03
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

And you cannot teach me about action vs reaction. Lesson #1 in Law School. The great thing is that its easily verifiable who started denigrating the other. I was tired of your bellicose wording and decide to use some levity, which you also don't like. Oh well If you have no sense of humour, that is not my fault. 

And it's easily verifiable indeed that I was not the one who denigrated you, you started it.  Again, no accountability whatsoever.  Evidently you think defending the Zionist cause entitles you to some special privileges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 08:14
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Perhaps the best solution for many would be for the "clueless" Israelis to move out en masse and leave permanently . Admit their "mistake" and exit , stage left. 

Go right head, overreact, man.  If somebody has no capacity for self-reflection, I can't help it. I have no patience with people who pretend the inception of modern Israel wasn't complicated to begin with or that their argument of a civilizational right to the land wasn't complicated either. It is, very much so.  I understand that people need that narrative to feel comfortable about living in Israel and I don't think a single person here begrudges them the right to live there today.  But to pretend like that's the most natural thing ever is off-the-charts crazy.  Again, you wouldn't want to see a world where everybody else took that attitude, I promise you. 

To which I made a hospital comment meant to be funny and that is when you began. And I followed. Then you said WHITE LIES, I do not lie. 
By your standards calling me a Zionist (pretty funny) is not as bad as me calling you muffin. Wink


Edited by tszirmay - May 21 2021 at 08:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 08:35
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Perhaps the best solution for many would be for the "clueless" Israelis to move out en masse and leave permanently . Admit their "mistake" and exit , stage left. 

Go right head, overreact, man.  If somebody has no capacity for self-reflection, I can't help it. I have no patience with people who pretend the inception of modern Israel wasn't complicated to begin with or that their argument of a civilizational right to the land wasn't complicated either. It is, very much so.  I understand that people need that narrative to feel comfortable about living in Israel and I don't think a single person here begrudges them the right to live there today.  But to pretend like that's the most natural thing ever is off-the-charts crazy.  Again, you wouldn't want to see a world where everybody else took that attitude, I promise you. 

To which I made a hospital comment meant to be funny and that is when you began. And I followed. Then you said WHITE LIES, I do not lie. 
By your standards calling me a Zionist (pretty funny) is not as bad as me calling you muffin. Wink
No, you do lie, you have demonstrably lied again and again in pretending that I asked Israelis to leave.  And you still have not apologized for that comment.  So what if YOU claim you do not lie? Even Trump says that.  That's hardly a feasible argument. 

And the part "I have no patience with people" was intended for ssmarcus but you're so thin skinned you managed to take offence to that and then claim I made a personal attack on you.





Edited by rogerthat - May 21 2021 at 08:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 08:46
(Dramatic music in background).I guess surrender is more important than debate. Fine. You are right, everything you say is god-like and 100% perfect. I am an uneducated , rash, imbecilic 4 year-old  naive simpleton who swallows anything  stated by someone who has a stronger, sharper and more concise voice, who has powerful backers that know the truth . I am so sorry to have dared to challenge you . I use the Internet as a psychiatric tool because its free, so that I can somehow soothe my "failures" and desperately find some kind of solace in reading the real facts as expressed by people who know what is right! Or Left. I will change my distorted ways and align myself with your glorious vision. I will never again waver in misguided rants. Again, and very truthfully I have seen the light and I am sorry to have raised your considerable ire. Pop, pop, glass of water, gulp! 

There I apologized! Not so thin-skinned eh? feel better, muffin? 


Edited by tszirmay - May 21 2021 at 08:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 08:49
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Edited by rogerthat - May 21 2021 at 09:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 09:01
Well the thread involving NO PATIENCE is CLEARLY a reply to my comment (see above) and nowhere do you MENTION  Marcus. Secondly, you object to me NOT being a Jew and espousing some kind of historical perspective. Are you a Palestinian, or an Arab ? of course NOT. If its good for the goose...How can I be lying when I am actually sitting? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 09:02
Wow, you are losing it, as I remain calm and occasionally funny... a whole series of slanders....you should be a politician. 

Edited by tszirmay - May 21 2021 at 09:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 09:03
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Well the thread involving NO PATIENCE is CLEARLY a reply to my comment (see above) and nowhere do you MENTION  Marcus. Secondly, you object to me NOT being a Jew and espousing some kind of historical perspective. Are you a Palestinian, or an Arab ? of course NOT. If its good for the goose...How can I be lying when I am actually sitting? LOL

If it was not clear from my comment, then I am sorry for that.  But no, I did not intend the no patience part for you.  I assumed it was clear because everything I said after that was in reference to marcus though I didn't name him.

Regardless, you have yet to produce a single quote of mine where I asked for the Jews to leave Israel.  See, I am able to clarify that maybe I didn't communicate clearly and take the onus for it.  But you are still deeply convinced that making false accusations of people is OK in an argument.  And that is what I deeply dislike.  If you resort to deceit in an internet argument, I wonder what else should be expected in real life.


Edited by rogerthat - May 21 2021 at 09:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 09:04
I accept your apology. I am not a jerk , you can ask around.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 09:06
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

I accept your apology. I am not a jerk , you can ask around.....

I don't have to ask around when you gave ample evidence of it here.  Still have not accepted that I never asked for the Jews to leave.  Why, would your head shatter in a thousand pieces if you just accepted that?  Why so egoistic?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 09:07
I never said the YOU want Israel to vanish, nowhere. I only stated that many millions fondly wish for that to happen. You are way to intelligent to fall in that stupid rabbit- hole. But you are "either or", what about balance?  But getting angry with me serves no purpose as I take NO sides , I am like the Swiss , I look at my watch and eat chocolate/cheese. I do not agree with the colonization of the occupied territories , in fact quite the contrary. I believe that both sides should embrace each other , once and for all. 

Edited by tszirmay - May 21 2021 at 09:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 09:09
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

I never said the YOU want Israel to vanish, nowhere. I only stated that many millions fondly wish for that to happen. You are way to intelligent to fall in that stupid rabbit- hole. But getting angry with me serves no purpose as I take NO sides , I am like the Swiss , I look at my watch and eat chocolate/cheese. 

And who is the many millions and what purpose does that serve in an argument here where there's nobody from Hamas or ISIS here?  Why could you not have clarified that before when I asked you about that statement again and again?  No, seriously, I thought you just accused all of us other than the Jews in the thread of asking Jews to leave.  And I am not alone.  Steve responded in the same manner.  Hopefully you now understand why I was so infuriated with you because I thought that was very irritating to put it mildly.


Edited by rogerthat - May 21 2021 at 09:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 09:10
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Would it be more appropriate to say that the Israelis learned nothing from history when it comes to violations of a Palestinian's civil rights, instead of bringing up the Nazi atrocities?

What people should "learn from history" is far from clear, considering that the situation in Palestine from WWII is historically unique (every situation is but this even more so). I think it's actually quite arrogant to talk as if you knew better what should have been learnt than the people who were/are in fact in the situation to learn/apply what is learnt. If you want to condemn current Israeli policy you can well do that without lecturing the parties involved on what they should have learnt, according to your opinion. (Obviously involving the Nazis explicitly makes it even worse, actually grossly insulting, but not mentioning them doesn't really save the day; surely not only the Jews will guess what you actually have in mind.)

Ok, is it safe to say that if both Israelis and Palestinians fail to learn from the mistakes of history then they will repeat them!? History is our only teacher.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 09:10
Thomas. Are you the guy that speaks 11 different languages? I remember I was very much impressed by it, and it was you. Correct?

Your English is very good, but perhaps speaking 11 different languages might result in some ambivalent situations? I also got you wrong here on the first page, I guess.

Plus, we need some British (preferably English) contributors here. We can never reach their "bests" in English. Wink

Also, I believe you read stuff a lot, but it doesn't mean you can express yourself in written language perfectly on the internet. We, people in our 20s, 30s; are more lucky in that. (I'm 40, though). As we are doing the "forum work" perhaps since our adolescence.

Edited by Shadowyzard - May 21 2021 at 09:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 09:16
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Ok, is it safe to say that if both Israelis and Palestinians fail to learn from the mistakes of history then they will repeat them!? History is our only teacher.

Nailed it.  Big smile  Same story as in Kashmir.  As I said early on in the thread, a bitter fight over territorial sovereignty of one piece of land can lead to both warring parties losing their sovereignty in essence to bigger powers interfering in the name of 'helping' one or the other side.  Modi has haughtily appropriated Indian Kashmir for good but it will only trigger an even bigger retaliation from Pak when they get the chance.  

For arm-wrestles between reasonably well matched fighters to end, one of them must become big hearted enough to compromise and give away more than he takes.  Without that, it's not possible to reach a solution.  I am not saying which as between Israel and Palestine should have been the big hearted one.  The problem is now intractable.  I am sure when China gets more powerful, they would love to get a piece of the action in the region too. That is, even if both parties want to solve it in good faith, the superpowers won't let them.  There's too much at stake now to just let the conflict die.
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