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micky 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46833
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 Posted: November 20 2016 at 09:43 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: November 20 2016 at 10:16 |
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Thanks for your kind words, everyone. I think we all could use more of that with the quality of public discourse shattering lately. I could write a ton more about a lot more, but if you boil it down I think we all just want people we elect to be morally good people. It's really kind of interesting how Machiavellian people are at large, especially the holders of the supposed high ground, the Christian right. How can good governance emanate from the greedy, brash, demagogic, and corrupt? I would say that's why people rejected Hillary, but who then did they turn to? It's more complicated. But still, I believe if you take good people and put them in positions of power, they will govern well, regardless of past political experience. After all, the president has way more than a handful of advisors. It can't be a shallow "I go to church every Sunday" kind of moral goodness, but something grounded in humanism, caring, and Enlightenment ideals. It's sad to see that these qualities are very scarce in representatives these days (and honestly, probably all of the past, as well). But Bernie's close, and Warren's close. If we demand it of our representatives, they'll come out of the woodwork.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: November 20 2016 at 14:37 |
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I think it's very dangerous thing to sit back resignedly now and say: things will get better in 2020. That's just not good enough, although for the life of me I don't know what could be done.
I see it this way: in the next four years, the Trump administration will run everything so far into the ground (society, equality, etc. will lie in ruins; it's already started, and the man's not even in office yet) that it will take many years, if not decades, for any new administrations to bring everything back to the standard that it has today. And this is truly scary, because, as we all know, today is far from ideal, but in four years time it will seem like paradise lost.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: November 20 2016 at 23:12 |
 npjnpj wrote:
I think it's very dangerous thing to sit back resignedly now and say: things will get better in 2020. That's just not good enough, although for the life of me I don't know what could be done.
I see it this way: in the next four years, the Trump administration will run everything so far into the ground (society, equality, etc. will lie in ruins; it's already started, and the man's not even in office yet) that it will take many years, if not decades, for any new administrations to bring everything back to the standard that it has today. And this is truly scary, because, as we all know, today is far from ideal, but in four years time it will seem like paradise lost.
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I hate to say it, because it's cynical, likely to be painful and NOT what I want (yes despite my griping I obviously would've preferred Clinton over Trump) but: This may be the only way for the country to go forward.
Anger at Obama, and Democrats in general, have basically fueled this decent into madness we've seen, progressively, over the last 8 years. Ultimately fueled by economic distress, and loss of confidence in "the system" It may be that this would never end, until we had a GOP President and Congress. I of course fear for what may happen with LGBT rights, the environment, healthcare, economic inequality, the Supreme Court having a conservative tilt for 20 years, and scariest of all: Lord knows what the f**k Trump will do in terms of foreign policy. But the student of history in me wants to say this always happen: the reactionary knee jerk against progress, which does win out in the end.
Also the Democrats DO still exist (I think....) they can grow a spine and actually oppose Trump/the GOP. Remember, the GOP was in a far worse spot in 2008. The Dems totally overran Congress. 2 years later, they were barely holding on. 2 more years later, Congress gone. So these things can change quickly. We need bottom up reform, in fact state level may be most important: Win states back so we can rework these filibustered districts, voting rights abuses, that have favored the GOP.
Remember when the Dems went crazy on guns a few months ago? That 15 hour filibuster, all the sit ins and shutting down the House. All that passion, or perhaps "passion", whipped up? Where the hell is that party? Outside guns, seems the Democratic Party can't even stand up on their own legs. They HAVE to embrace the wave coming over them.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 00:47 |
@JJLehto: [1][1]I understand what you mean,
and, to a certain extent, I agree, with the theoretical content, at least. But
shouldn't a democratic system be able to rectify this on its own instead of burning
everything down before rebuilding from scratch? There are two concrete examples
that this won't work and just backfire. Let me explain what I mean:
The present state of affairs shows that the democratic systems in the USA and
Europe are somehow seriously flawed. Some sort of failsafe is missing, if a
democracy is able to destroy itself from within when its own rules are
rigorously applied. It shows that democracy is almost defenseless if
misused, and neither the electorate nor the elected use the system as it was
intended. In the cases of the USA and Europe: this is what happens when the
alternatives presented for election are both untenable and misaligned to the actual conditions of the population.
I don't believe I’m exaggerating when I ask: how are you so sure that in four
or in eight years time there are still going to be elections that are not just
window dressing? This is not just some theoretical musing: both Poland and
Turkey have just demonstrated this in a very scary way (the two examples I
mentioned above):
Totalitarian governments were elected who then proceeded to dismantle
democracy from within (applying democratic principles) until it was destroyed.
The worst thing anyone could do would be to look at this and say: "It
can't happen here!". I wouldn't have believed it possible of those two
countries a year or two ago, but it still happened. Complacency would be the
worst thing in this situation, and, to come back to your point: that way of
thinking might just be what could very well lead to democracy dying a
relatively swift death. We've all just seen it happen twice in one year under
similar circumstances to ours.
Edited by npjnpj - November 21 2016 at 00:59
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20609
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 04:12 |
micky wrote:
do we have any choice but TO accept them. They won... we lost. All we can honestly do Steve is hope and pray they don't wreck things so completely that it takes the whole term of the bullpen.. the next Democratic President.. to clean it all up. Thankfully I really don't see any way Trump gets a 2nd term... 4 years of Trump...
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I think we're arguing over semantics micky. Accepting them and tolerating them are two different things. I will have to tolerate them as I have no other choice, and as you said, hope for the best. I'm not so sure that Trump will be a one term President without some major work being done by the Dems in just 4 years. I can only hope so. But one bright light is that Bernie will be more involved in help shaping the "new Democratic Party". I hope. And speaking of hope, check Bernie's brand new book: Bernie Sanders: Our Revolution.
Edited by SteveG - November 21 2016 at 04:13
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65269
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 05:05 |
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Oy.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20609
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 07:37 |
 Yes, Bernie outlines what must be done to improve the Dem Party by putting emphasis back on the forgotten working middle class, and how to comb your hair with a balloon.
Edited by SteveG - November 21 2016 at 07:52
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 09:15 |
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What?
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20625
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 12:45 |
SteveG wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Interesting piece by Henry Rollins....http://www.laweekly.com/music/henry-rollins-trump-is-going-from-grabbing-pussies-to-being-one-7621064
"Donald Trump told his foaming fans at one rally after another that he would “repeal and replace Obamacare.” He also said that he would build a wall on America’s southern border and that Mexico would pay for it. He repeated until he was orange in the face that he would deport or arrest up to 11 million undocumented immigrants via a “deportation force.” These were some of the “yuger” arrows in his campaign quiver. Only days after winning the election, “repeal and replace” was repealed and replaced by an openness to “amend” the Affordable Care Act. The wall was walked back to fence and 11 million became 3 million. Word to Trump supporters: Your hero went from grabbing pussies to being one. Oh, the butthurt."
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 Is there anyone cooler than Henry f**king Rollins? |
He's as cool as they come....  The article was very interesting in that I agree that Trump, and his insiders also, didn't expect to win . I think they were stunned now that they actually have to work for a change and make these promises to the angry white folk...er I mean American voters they appealed to. ;)
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 12:55 |
^I agree Doc. Trump was probably more shocked to win then Hilary was to loose! 
Edited by SteveG - November 21 2016 at 13:46
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
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Points: 5319
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 13:42 |
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Maybe he can outsource the presidency to an "apprentice"
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20609
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 13:45 |
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^He did. His name is Mike Pence.
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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timothy leary
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Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 13:48 |
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Appentice does have a ring to it
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20609
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 13:50 |
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 13:52 |
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I think a lot of golf will be happening.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13637
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 14:19 |
timothy leary wrote:
I think a lot of golf will be happening. |
I recommend lots of golf for all world leaders, or whatever leisure activity floats their boat. The more time they spend enjoying themselves, the less time they have to ruminate on ways to make our lives even more bloody miserable.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 14:27 |
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^Good advice Laz. I might caddy for them for free! (Ok, perhaps for tips or a drink or two.)
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20625
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 15:33 |
lazland wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
I think a lot of golf will be happening. |
I recommend lots of golf for all world leaders, or whatever leisure activity floats their boat. The more time they spend enjoying themselves, the less time they have to ruminate on ways to make our lives even more bloody miserable. |
Brilliant......
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: November 21 2016 at 17:40 |
i'd be more surprised than anything is he did. What concerns me about him is not him getting himself rich.. it obviously didn't bother those that voted for him.. shouldn't and won't bother me.. serves the suckers right that bought his obviously bullsh*t message that he cared for the people he has lived his whole life pissing on. What concerns me Dean is his complete lack of knowledge or understanding of what goes on outside this country. We fixed Bush's domestic bungling.. however after 8 years we are still dealing with Bush's foreign mess. A great deal concerns me about Trump.. nothing more than his relationship with Putin. We need to be the restraint on his ambitions.. not his f**king best friend.
Edited by micky - November 21 2016 at 17:42
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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American Politics the 2016 edition
Not exactly a recipe for domestic bliss in the White House I suppose. On that note...I do wonder if Trump lays off social media and Twitter while President. 