American Politics the 2016 edition

TeleStrat wrote: I've seen the breakdown of votes and I hear what you're saying, Mick. My point is that it's more than old white men that prevent the left from having it's way. It is Conservatism that has prevented that. According to a Gallup survey in January, 2015, Conservatives were at 38% while Liberals were at 24%. As time goes by these numbers could change. As far as the old white men thing, my two sons are 38 and 39 years old and they are Conservatives by their own choice. My grandson is 19 years old and he didn't talk to his girlfriend for three days because she supported Clinton.

Two important factors: the conservative base is shrinking, especially social conservatism; moderate ideologies are overtaking conservatism even as liberalism grows. Most importantly, as large as conservatism has been, liberalism cannot oppose it without overwhelming support from the middle. Moderates are what keep liberalism and conservatism both in check. The center has always been the most important sector, even when they are a minority. God help us all if this election portends an end to that balance.

You also have to remember what the election results actually say, and how it meshes with the country at large. Most Americans view immigration positively. You can bet that Trump got a significant portion of those who disagree, and he collected about 60 million votes in an election with 240 million eligible voters.  When 25% of people polled say immigration is a bad thing, and anti-immigration Trump wins votes from 25% of eligible voters, you might imagine how unpopular opinions can drive policy as long as they drive voters to the polls in asymmetric fashion. The public at large do not control elections. The electoral college has been unpopular for as long as anyone has been measuring (I think it was near two thirds against last I saw it polled), but it has no chance of being overturned because the states that would have to ratify an amendment are those who have disproportionate representation under the current system.

After all, we are not a democracy, we are a federal republic.

Gamemako wrote: TeleStrat wrote: I've seen the breakdown of votes and I hear what you're saying, Mick. My point is that it's more than old white men that prevent the left from having it's way. It is Conservatism that has prevented that. According to a Gallup survey in January, 2015, Conservatives were at 38% while Liberals were at 24%. As time goes by these numbers could change. As far as the old white men thing, my two sons are 38 and 39 years old and they are Conservatives by their own choice. My grandson is 19 years old and he didn't talk to his girlfriend for three days because she supported Clinton. Two important factors: the conservative base is shrinking, especially social conservatism; moderate ideologies are overtaking conservatism even as liberalism grows. Most importantly, as large as conservatism has been, liberalism cannot oppose it without overwhelming support from the middle. Moderates are what keep liberalism and conservatism both in check. The center has always been the most important sector, even when they are a minority. God help us all if this election portends an end to that balance. You also have to remember what the election results actually say, and how it meshes with the country at large. Most Americans view immigration positively. You can bet that Trump got a significant portion of those who disagree, and he collected about 60 million votes in an election with 240 million eligible voters.  When 25% of people polled say immigration is a bad thing, and anti-immigration Trump wins votes from 25% of eligible voters, you might imagine how unpopular opinions can drive policy as long as they drive voters to the polls in asymmetric fashion. The public at large do not control elections. The electoral college has been unpopular for as long as anyone has been measuring (I think it was near two thirds against last I saw it polled), but it has no chance of being overturned because the states that would have to ratify an amendment are those who have disproportionate representation under the current system. After all, we are not a democracy, we are a federal republic.

Crybaby millenials do that every vote anywhere that they lose, it's nothing new

Dave Chappelle is tearing it up on SNL -

TeleStrat wrote: micky wrote: car collisions... train wrecks... airplane crashes....  you cant turn away from those...  taking the numbers from what they are worth.. regardless of who showed up at his rallies to see what he might say.. or what brownshirted Trumpian thug might do... the voters seemed loud and clear that the minorities.. educated whites.. and the youth overwhelmingly were NOT Trump supporters.i. and Trump lost women decisively worse than any Republican candidate in years.. if ever.. and Republicans do not normally do notthat.  His core support was angry old uneducated white guy.. such as was thought.. such as they voted this week.. seems a very fair point to make in these discussions Gary. I've seen the breakdown of votes and I hear what you're saying, Mick. My point is that it's more than old white men that prevent the left from having it's way. It is Conservatism that has prevented that. According to a Gallup survey in January, 2015, Conservatives were at 38% while Liberals were at 24%. As time goes by these numbers could change. As far as the old white men thing, my two sons are 38 and 39 years old and they are Conservatives by their own choice. My grandson is 19 years old and he didn't talk to his girlfriend for three days because she supported Clinton.

no doubt man.... and there were blacks and latinos that voted for Trump.  Obviously the point being made is that it was angry old white guys that provided his core support. It was who he appealed to...

did he appeal to the youth?  provide any notion he cared about whatever troubles them.
did he appeal to hispanics?  provide any notion he values their contribuations to making this country great
did he appeal to blacks? provide any notion he values their rage at the continued systematic racism theyfight?
did he appeal to women?   hahahhah..  ahh no

his whole campaign centered around speaking to old white guy who is very angry .. some at the economics.. some at the social/racial.  I'm sure there were some youth, some hispanics, some black, or women that agreed.. but he did not give any of them any reason to support them otherwise.

The way we hear it in Europe is that Obama won with over 57M votes over the Reps' 50M and Hillary lost with 51M over Trump's 48M... Soooo, that's -6M for the Dems and -2M for the Reps from 2012 to 2016

So abstentions played the biggest role (on both sides)... the Reps didn't win, the Dems lost it

But still one can only wonder how the US system can call itself a representative and proportional democracy

========

Micky, it's been a couple of days that I've been trying to figure out which band's piccie that is in your sig


Edited by Sean Trane - November 13 2016 at 06:06

Absolutely the Dems lost it. 

The Wikipedia page has a pretty enlightening discussion behind the history of the "electoral college".  I knew what it is now, of course, but I did not know that in the past you didn't even vote for president, but rather for an elector who would decide who to vote for.  I know we technically vote for electors even now, but the ballot lists the actual presidential/VP candidates, not the electors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_College_(United_States)

^^  I always thought the electors were chosen by the state.

Edited by TeleStrat - November 13 2016 at 14:22

^

The most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on CNN:
CNN commentator Angela Rye calls Sheriff Clarke a terrorist

Is this real life?